The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item will be questions to the Minister for Social Justice, and the first question is from Jayne Bryant.

Bullying in Schools

Jayne Bryant AC: 1. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language about tackling anti-LGBTQ+ bullying in schools? OQ60230

Hannah Blythyn AC: Bullying is completely unacceptable. We want to see an end to all forms of bullying and we are updating our statutory anti-bullying guidance, 'Rights, respect, equality', which sets out that LGBTQ+ related bullying is included within a school bullying prevention strategy in a way that considers learners' needs.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister, and for that firm commitment. We can't underestimate the impact that anti-LGBTQ+ bullying, or any form of bullying, can have on young people, and it's only right that we all make a stand on this. This week is Anti-bullying Week, and the theme this year is 'Make a Noise about Bullying'. The Anti-bullying Alliance, which co-ordinates Anti-bullying Week every year, says on their website,
'This Anti-Bullying Week let’s come together to have discussions about what bullying means to us, how banter can turn into something more hurtful, and what we can do to stop bullying. Together, we can make a difference and take a stand against bullying.
'From the playground to Parliament, and from our phones to our homes, let’s make a noise about bullying.'
So, Deputy Minister, can I ask what is the Welsh Government doing to support Anti-bullying Week, and do you agree with me that it's important that we all have a responsibility to talk about and tackle bullying?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank the Member, Jayne Bryant, for her question? And I absolutely agree that we all have a responsibility to tackle bullying and to talk about it, and you're right to say that we can't underestimate the impact that anti-LGBTQ+ bullying, or any form of bullying for that matter, can have on young people in their lives. We’re working closely, as the Welsh Government, with the Anti-bullying Alliance, who are behind Anti-bullying Week and we’ve worked in partnership with them since the last Senedd term, which has meant that we’ve had new bilingual resources to help prevent bullying and they’re available each autumn for learners and practitioners, including 2023.
We talk about what you said, the impact of LGBTQ+ bullying and the impact it has on people as they’re growing up, and I think I've touched on it here in this Chamber very briefly before—that I was bullied at secondary school. I thought then it was because I was different. I think that children had recognised something in me that I had yet to recognise in myself, and I think if you reflected on it now, we would call it for what it was: homophobic bullying. It went on for four and a half years and it only stopped when I decided I’d had enough, because I’d heard the group were going to put itching powder in my clothes after PE and I just couldn't bare the thought of that humiliation. So, that was the point when one of my friends made me go and tell a teacher so that we could stop it. So, it took me a long time to build my self-belief back after that happened. So, as you said in those words, 'from the playground to Parliament', it is really important that we make a noise about bullying. We share our experiences, however difficult they might be, and so it really is true that, if we share them in this Parliament, hopefully that is something that then transmits to playgrounds and settings throughout our communities in Wales.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I agree with the Member for Newport West—bullying is a blight in our schools and something that we all need to be working towards to condemn and eradicate. We have recently seen online reports of schools in Wales seeing a rise in pupils potentially identifying as a cat or 'furries'. I completely agree with the headteacher in the school in question in the most recent news story on this that these children do not need litter trays; they need proper mental health support and extra funding into our schools. They don't need a Government encouraging children and young people to identify as a cat, a carrot, a 'furry' or whatever.
As well as disrupting pupils' education, putting our teachers in an impossible situation, it is inherently going to increase bullying in our schools. Don't you agree with me that, as proven by the recent press, pushing the extremes of the ideology that you want into our classrooms is only going to have a negative impact, increase bullying, and that what we do actually need is more mental health support in our schools, which, even though we keep being told by you and the education Minister that more money is going into our schools for mental health support, I am not seeing happening on the ground?

Hannah Blythyn AC: It's sad but not shocking that you seek to sensationalise what is a really important and challenging issue for young people and also for teachers and support staff in schools who want to do the right thing by young people and stamp out bullying in all of our learning settings. And it's about actually creating a strategy that's inclusive, that people feel they're supported, and they'll be able to—. There are young people here in the gallery today watching, and our message to them is that we don't seek to sensationalise and rest on those major headlines, but to do the right thing and make sure that they can learn in an environment where they're supported and feel included.

Rainbow Europe Index

Adam Price AC: 2. Will the Minister consider applying to be a part of the International Lesbian and Gay Association's Rainbow Europe index in order to measure progress against the aim of being an LGBT-friendly country? OQ60219

Hannah Blythyn AC: The Welsh Government are already in contact with theILGAEurope team to explore how best to highlight progress in Wales against our ambition of being the mostLGBTQ+ friendly country in Europe. This reflects the commitment set out in the LGBTQ+ action plan to strengthen and show our LGBTQ+ values in Wales and beyond.

Adam Price AC: I'm grateful to the Minister. It was an inspiration to be in Melita recently, and to see during EuroPride the huge progress that has been made there. It was a traditionally conservative society. There'd been no progress in terms of LGBTQ+ rights for 40 years since the decriminialisation of homosexual relationships. But now, Melita has been No. 1 in the Rainbow index for the past seven years because of the determination to ensure that rights are respected, whilst, at the same time, we've seen the United Kingdom falling down the index, down to seventeenth position, because of those attitudes that we've heard from the Conservative benches again this afternoon.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you for the question. I agree that the UK's current position is terrible and is an embarrassment.

Hannah Blythyn AC: We were once number 1. The UK was once ranked the most LGBT+ friendly nation in Europe, and, as you say, we're now seventeenth out of 49 European countries. And I saw your coverage when you were out there in Malta, and, I must say, part of me was slightly jealous that I didn't get to go out to EuroPride—maybe one day. But we're very much working, as part of the LGBTQ+ action plan—which Plaid Cymru are part of, as our co-operation agreement partners—on how we can actually make sure that Wales's position, and the work we're trying to do, is included with the work of the ILGA Europe team. So, we're exploring options on how we can highlight the work that we're doing, and our position across the UK, and why we digress in taking that different approach. And I know a team of Welsh Government officials had a preliminary meeting with the ILGA Europe policy team last summer. So, we continue those conversations to explore how we can do that, and one way of doing it is, possibly, through the annual review, usually published each January. So, I'm happy to keep the Member updated on that work.

Tom Giffard AS: As Adam Price has already said, the United Kingdom is represented on the Rainbow Europe index. And one of the things the index looks at is whether LGBT people are supported, whatever their background, whatever their gender, their social class, their race, their disability, or even the way they vote. And that's why I wanted to raise this year's Pride Cymru, where the First Minister wore a badge that said he'd never kissed a Tory. And in doing so, he was accused of belittling LGBT Conservatives. And I've got a quote from one of them who I spoke to in anticipation of this question, who said,
'I'm sure it's all a big joke for the First Minister. He has no idea of the struggles that I've lived through as an LGBT person. Imagine living in a country where your own leader actively pursues a campaign of discrimination against you.'
This is Anti-bullying Week. We've heard from Jayne Bryant already that banter can turn into something more hurtful. So, will the Labour Party in future stop the distribution of these badges?

Hannah Blythyn AC: So, I remember when this slogan came up originally, and it was first paraded at a Pride march in London, where there was the slogan 'I've never kissed a Tory'. And, the next year, the LGBTQ Conservative group came out with one saying, 'I kissed a Tory', so it was certainly taken in the way it was intended then. And, again, I think we seek to trivialise what is a really, really challenging time for members of the LGBTQ+ community by latching at those party political scoring points, when we should actually be working together to support communities. And actually, Tom, maybe more of your members should turn up at Pride to support our young people and our LGBTQ+ community in Wales.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, this week, we mark Anti-bullying Week. Bullying can take many forms and occur in many settings, from the playground to the boardroom, and far too many people are subjected to bullying. And that bullying usually relates to a protected characteristic. Last week, a report to Bridgend County Borough Council highlighted a large uptick in racist abuse in schools across the county borough. Minister, how are you working with the Minister for education in order to tackle racist bullying in our schools?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain, for that really important question. We've just had a really important exchange about tackling bullying in schools in relation to our 'Rights, respect and equality' bullying guidance, which is actually being updated. And of course, this fits completely with our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. Indeed, yesterday, I was very pleased to have the opportunity to go to an INSET day in Cardiff on how schools in Cardiff, bringing this together, were subscribing to the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' via the diversity anti-racism professional learning, which is being supported by the Welsh Government and led by Cardiff Metropolitan University. And the teachers and the pupils there that I met signed up to the 'Anti-racist Wales Action plan'. Of course, a part of that is making sure and identifying any incidences of bullying. But also, what was so wonderful about that school is that they've produced their own anti-racist Wales action plan—the school that I visited, St Paul's Church in Wales Primary School, in Grangetown—and they were proud of it. And they believe that this is the way in which they can learn effectively as citizens of Cardiff and of Wales.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. I would like to expand upon the answer that Jayne Bryant got earlier. We know that bullying, whether that is racist abuse, attacks related to a child's disability, or anti-LGBT, can be relentless in this modern tech-enabled era. There's often no escape, Minister. How is your Government working with the four police cyber crime teams and Tarian to help get the message out to young people that not only is this type of bullying a potential hate crime, but could also be a cyber crime? Surely, the best way to tackle this type of bullying is to educate young people on the consequences of such actions.

Jane Hutt AC: I'm also grateful for that question and the follow-on question. As I said, we're updating our statutory anti-bullying guidance, led, of course, by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. It's also really important that it's strengthening our approaches to prevent and tackle any prejudice-based bullying of all forms. Of course, we've also heard that this is going to be including homophobic and transphobic bullying as well. But in terms of the wide range of bullying, which can of course be part of and lead to hate crimes, we know that our new curriculum, which is being rolled out in schools, is helping us tackle this. I think what's important is that we're working with stakeholders, including the police, in fact, and I think, as you say, this is something that we have to recognise in terms of cyber-based bullying as well. It's something where we've got a multi-agency action plan, for example, to tackle peer-on-peer sexual harassment in education settings, and very specific actions in terms of the way we can address this, but particularly, I think, considering the needs of learners with protected characteristics.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you again, Minister. Of course, the consequences of this type of bullying go far beyond the potential of a crime record for the bully. The bullied individual has to deal with them long after the abuse has stopped, often dealing with lifelong trauma. Sadly, as has been recently highlighted by a report from Samaritans UK, many LGBTQ+young people take their own lives. As many as one in four reported a past suicide attempt. Samaritans UK are calling for better support networks for LGBTQ+ young people. Lived experience advisers have said that sometimes the most important support people can get is from within their community. Recreational and well-being groups led by and for LGBTQ+ people can be a lifeline. Minister, what can the Welsh Government do to help establish and finance such groups? Thank you very much.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much. I think this very much follows on from the responses from the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership earlier on. And it is good that you have drawn our attention to reports, like the one from Samaritans UK, and that we link closely to and look at any evidence that we can have and any recommendations to support us. But I did mention the curriculum, and I think what's becoming very clear is that our relationships and sexuality education strand of the curriculum is very important and is assisting, helping learners to form and maintain a range of relationships based on mutual trust and respect. That's the foundation of relationships and sexuality education, and schools and settings have such an important role to play. I can only just reflect on what a change that would have been for our Deputy Minister, and I know this has been expressed in the Chamber—if we'd had that relationships and sexuality education during your childhood and other childhoods here today. And what's very important is the empowerment, safety and respect strand of the mandatory RSE code. So, I do believe we have got all the tools—we've got the tools—we've got the commitment from our teaching professionals, as well as our learners, to address this fully.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Prynhawn da, Weinidog. As we have seen in the figures released today, inflation is falling, but that does not mean that most goods and services are cheaper to buy, rather that prices are rising less quickly, and the Resolution Foundation has warned that the scale of the UK's inflation shock has left a legacy of far higher prices. And over the past two years the cost of energy has surged by 49 per cent, while food prices have risen by 28 per cent, far greater than the 14 per cent on average earnings over this period, and, of course, rents and mortgages have already increased. It could be argued that the financial crisis facing Welsh households, indeed, this winter, is even more acute than last year, as much of the Government support available has evaporated and any savings have already been used by households. Citizens Advice Cymru continue to see historically high numbers of people in need of crisis support.
Plaid Cymru's proud of the steps we have already taken with the Government to put more money into people's pockets and help budgets go further through the co-operation agreement, with free school meals, of course, to primary school children and securing additional free childcare. But as underlined by many of the recommendations of the report of the expert group on the cost-of-living crisis, which Plaid Cymru's echoed in our calls this week, there is more the Labour Government in Wales should be doing to support those in need. So, will the Minister respond to those calls, which are within the power of the Welsh Government and many of which have already been budgeted for, for instance the work on the Welsh benefits system and the implementation of the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme? Do you accept that there's been slow progress in these steps that have been identified by the expert group as being so important? So, when can we receive updates on those, please?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. Well, this is something where bringing all those reports together the evidence is very clear and, indeed, the consultation that we undertook in terms of moving forward with our child poverty strategy—. We did commission, of course, the technical advisory group to look at the impact of the cost-of-living crisis. Yes, we can see that despite the reduction in inflation, we know the cost-of-living crisis and the impact, particularly in terms of fuel poverty and food poverty, is hitting households hard in Wales. But we are committed, as you know, to supporting those disadvantaged households through all those programmes that provide targeted support to alleviate financial pressures.
I think what's really important is that we have allocated over £18 million to support community food organisations, for example, to tackle food poverty and a wide range of services. But I think it's important to recognise that our new Warm Homes programme is now announced and it's on its way, and I think, just looking at the last year of delivery of the Nest scheme, for example—it's the last year, but actually from a progress meeting with Nest only a couple of weeks ago, on 31 October, some highlights: 2,246 households received a free package of energy efficiency measures and 7,813 households received free advice on energy efficiency. And the ways in which we, across Government—of course, it is the Minister for Climate Change as well as me—are investing in tackling fuel poverty and food poverty are crucially important to respond to this important report and the evidence that's coming through of the continuing impact of the UK Government's failure to address the needs of people in Wales, particularly the fact that they are not responding to our calls for a social tariff, and they're not responding to our calls to stop the standing charges as well, in terms of prepayment meters.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch. Turning now to the ongoing conflict in Israel and Palestine, which has cost thousands of lives, this conflict is exacerbating, as you know, an already very serious refugee crisis in the region. There are 1.5 million internally displaced people in Gaza, which is more than half of the population, and half of all housing in the besieged Gaza strip has already been destroyed or damaged. Scotland's First Minister, Humza Yousaf, along with City of Sanctuary, has called on the UK Government to welcome Palestinian refugees to the UK and for the international community to commit to a worldwide refugee programme for the people of Gaza. Once the UK has done this, the First Minister of Scotland has said that their country is willing to offer safety and sanctuary to those being forced to flee death, disease and destruction.
Within the nation of sanctuary and asylum-seeker plan, one of the action points is to continue to promote Welsh values of welcoming those fleeing the violence and persecution of war. So, given this, what discussions have you had with the UK Government regarding the creation of a refugee resettlement scheme for those in Gaza who want to and are able to leave? Do you echo the calls of Humza Yousaf? Is Wales ready and willing to welcome all refugees from Gaza and not only those with British passports, especially given the Tory Westminster Government's determination to break international law to enact its cruel immigration policies?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. It is very important that we continue—and we debated this last week—to do what we can, not just in terms of community cohesion, which I expressed and updated Members on ways in which we're engaging with communities in Wales, but also that we look at what we can do as a nation of sanctuary. Obviously, matters relating to immigration remain the responsibility of the UK Government, and this does include potential refugee resettlement schemes. We're in regular contact with the UK Government to look at the situation and also we recognise that there haven't been any announcements by the UK Government on any resettlement packages for those from Gaza and Israel wishing to seek sanctuary in Wales. But I'm sure that you will be pleased, as we all supported those regulations yesterday, the homelessness regulations, that we're doing what we can to provide support for those who have got status or dual status to come and be supported in terms of housing. So, we need to look at what humanitarian support can be given. Absolutely, humanitarian law is the foundation of humanitarian action, and we will continue to work, particularly in maintaining contact and, indeed, obviously, liaising with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office about those people who also in Wales have been caught up in the conflict.

Foodbanks

Alun Davies AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government supporting foodbanks in Blaenau Gwent? OQ60237

Jane Hutt AC: Since 2019 the Welsh Government has allocated over £18 million to support foodbanks and community food organisations across Wales, including in Blaenau Gwent, to tackle food poverty and provide a wider range of services to help individuals and households maximise their income and build financial resistance.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. The Trussell Trust tells us that last December, last Christmas, was the busiest month on record for accessing foodbanks, and if ever there is an indictment of a failure of Government, it is the 3 million people—the population of Wales—across the United Kingdom who depend on foodbanks every year. In Blaenau Gwentwe've seen an increase of 23 per cent in people accessing foodbanks over the last year.
Minister, the Welsh Government has a record in supporting the poorest and most vulnerable people when they've been let down by UK Ministers. The Welsh Government has, for many years, supported foodbanks and community organisations to sustain and support families, particularly, perhaps, at Christmas. Ebbw Vale Rugby Football Club this year is supporting families by providing food on Christmas Day. But isn't it an indictment of Government, and does the Minister agree with me, that we shouldn't be relying on foodbanks and rugby clubs to sustain families on Christmas Day? In the twenty-first century, we should be doing better than this. Will the Welsh Government put pressure on the United Kingdom Government and say to the United Kingdom Government, 'Children who go hungry on Christmas Day is an indictment on 13 years of Conservative Government, an indictment on austerity, an indictment on economic failure, and an indictment on their claims to care about the most vulnerable people in our society'?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you very much, Alun Davies. It is an indictment. In fact, the evidence that's coming through of the impact of austerity—. Austerity, 13 years of austerity—let's take us back to those early days. The introduction of the bedroom tax, for example, what impact that had. And, actually, I do recall debates in this Chamber, where we have linked the growth of foodbanks directly back to these 13 years of austerity. The so-called welfare reforms, which were welfare cuts, cuts to welfare. We have a very fragile welfare state left, which is a state that we are trying to build and defend here in Wales.
But I do want to thank the foodbanks in your constituency, because I went to visit them a year or so ago, and we've now funded food partnerships all over Wales. There are co-ordinators, and there are lots of activities. All across the Chamber, you will know of the foodbanks, the pantries, the community groups, churches, mosques, everybody coming together, because they see this need in their communities. And in Blaenau Gwent, you've got support from Tai Calon, the local health board, Public Health Wales, the Gwent Association of Voluntary Organisations, Natural Resources Wales and the local authority all contributing now to the Blaenau Gwent foodbank. And also I thank the foodbank in Ebbw Vale who started, themselves, to access the Fuel Bank Foundation services, and they were giving out fuel vouchers even before we came in, as a Welsh Government, to fund the Fuel Bank Foundation.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: The need in Blaenau Gwent is indeed massive. People are really struggling during this cost-of-living crisis. My office has been in touch with TK's and Community Group food share in Cwm, and they've been finding it difficult to meet demand. Their supplies ran very low recently, but fortunately they have been replenished in time for the Christmas rush, as a result of local harvest appeals through schools and churches. As Alun said, Ebbw Vale RFC are generously offering free takeaway Christmas dinners for people in need.
This is where we are after 13 years of austerity and 13 years of Tory Westminster leadership. How can the Welsh Government make it easier for community groups to access funds they need to carry on ever-expanding their incredible anti-poverty work? These funds are not just needed for food purchases but also for increasing dry and cold storage capacity. As things stand, grant applications are not straightforward, especially for elderly volunteers and should be made more accessible for groups like TK's and Community Group food share in Cwm. Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Peredur. Following up that important question from Alun Davies, I've already mentioned the funding that we've been providing to support community food organisations, and I've also mentioned—which links to it—the funding we're giving to the Fuel Bank Foundation. Just on that point about the Fuel Bank Foundation, many people are in fuel and food poverty. In fact, we know that many people are no longer able to cook food because of the cost of electricity, so there's more use of cold food. And actually, this is where the pantries that are developing, like the food sharing in Cwm and other pantries around Wales—Big Bocs Bwyd, FareShare—providing fresh food and fruit, as well as perhaps tinned food and food that needs to be heated—. But we're doing everything that we can, not just in terms of providing funding for community food organisations, which helps to access food supplies, but also to pay for those fridge-freezers.
I met with the National Lottery last week, and they were telling me that they have put out a huge amount of funding through their Awards for All, which is a very accessible source of funding. But, of course, we also provide funding directly for people through the discretionary assistance fund. I think the support that we're giving to these food partnerships—. I met them—. All 22 local authorities have now got food partnership co-ordinators. I met them last month. They are helping to access and work with other agencies, including linking to their public services boards to access the incredibly important funding that they need. But I think it is going to be something where we need to link all of this in terms of tackling food poverty, tackling fuel poverty, and also, yes, again, raising it—as I do regularly—with the UK Government, who have withdrawn many of the sources of funding that they have got to help people directly, so then people turn back to their communities, and that's where we need to come in and do what we can to support.

Armed Forces Veterans

Ken Skates AC: 4. How does the Welsh Government support armed forces veterans? OQ60213

Hannah Blythyn AC: There is a range of provision and activity across Welsh Government in support of our armed forces veterans in Wales, in line with the armed forces covenant. This support includes funding for armed forces liaison officers, provision of mental health support through Veterans' NHS Wales, and working with partners on employment events for service leavers and veterans.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Minister. Remembrance, of course, is a time for everybody to come together, to unite across cultures, backgrounds and all faiths to remember those who have served to protect our democratic freedoms and ways of life. And I'm sure that you'll be familiar with the Royal British Legion's campaign, Credit their Service. It calls on councils to revise their policies to ensure that military compensation is not included in means testing for benefits, and at present only three local authorities fully disregard the compensation; I'm pleased to say that one of those local authorities is my own in Wrexham. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with both UK Government and representatives of local authorities in Wales on this issue, and would you join me in supporting the Royal British Legion's campaign?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Ken Skates for his question? You're right to raise the work of the Royal British Legion, particularly as we come out of the annual remembrance period. We know the Royal British Legion play a key part in communities. We'll predominantly be familiar with them in the remembrance period for the poppy selling, but you raise the work that they do around campaigning and calling for change as well. We work very closely with the Royal British Legion, not least because they're a member of our armed forces expert group. We have been in contact with them with regard to the Credit their Service campaign, and also officials have met with the Office for Veterans' Affairs in the UK Government too regarding the issues raised in the campaign. We've also raised that with the Welsh Local Government Association too, and our armed forces liaison officers, who are the contacts who work really closely with local authorities and who deliver so much support to our veterans and armed forces community who are in Wales.
It's my understanding that the campaign covers both devolved and reserved matters, and so we're going to work with those partners to examine what further action might be required on our part. It's something that I'm committed to and happy to discuss, and happy to follow up with the Member with my colleague Rebecca Evans, who's got responsibility not just for finance but local government, to see actually are there more things that we can do in Wales to live by our principles, the principles of the armed forces covenant, to make sure we support our veterans and armed forces community.

James Evans AS: I'd like to thank my colleague, Ken Skates, for raising this question today. Deputy Minister, my colleague Darren Millar, who’s chairman of the cross-party group on the armed forces, wrote to you in a written question about the armed forces covenant leads in our health boards across Wales. I’m aware that some of our health boards do have these people in post, but there are those health boards across our country that do not have anybody there representing our veterans, and these posts are vital to raise the issues that veterans come to them with, so they can access services in our NHS here in Wales. So, I’d be interested to know what work you’ve done with NHS Wales to make sure that we can get these armed forces covenant leads in every health board right across Wales so they can represent our fantastic veterans here in our fantastic country.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank James Evans for his question. I know, especially given your constituency, you have a strong interest in support for the armed forces community in Wales. I was actually at the Heath hospital in Cardiff on Friday with Maisy Provan, who’s a support officer there, to see the work that they are doing there in terms of not just supporting staff at the health board who are veterans who’ve served, whether reserve or whole-time, and the work that they’re doing on a monthly basis, but also how they’re doing work to better identify veterans who may be in hospital and their needs, and do even very simple things like put a magnetic poppy on the board by their bed as well. So, we are working with a range of partners. They’re funded by the armed forces covenant. So, we are working with partners, including health boards, to make sure we do target support and increase awareness of the armed forces community, the issues they have.
We very much recognise the work of those dedicated covenant officers, such as those in some of our health boards. I think there’s a challenge in terms of how much we can fund across Wales in the circumstances we’re in, but we’re happy to work with those. I know that Cardiff and Vale were particularly keen to see how they could embed that work going forward, so perhaps it's something we can talk about at our next armed forces expert group, of which Darren Millar is an observer member, in terms of actually how, within the resources we have, we may better be able to share some of that best practice in support in health boards across Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you to Ken for raising the issue of veterans’ support, at this time of the year in particular. But, Minister, there’s a group deep in the Rhondda—it’s in Buffy Williams’s local patch but it also serves people and veterans across my area, and across others Members’ as well, and it does minor miracles every single day, working with and for veterans. It’s a chap called Paul Bromwell from the Rhondda valley. He founded Valley Veterans, a veterans-led charity supporting and improving the mental and physical health and well-being of veterans through equine and horticultural activities. He himself is a former Welsh Guardsman, a Falkland islands campaign veteran. He organised the group 16 years ago after struggling to get back to grips with civilian life and after having himself a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder as well. Would you join me, Minister, and others in this Chamber join me, in congratulating Paul Bromwell from Valley Veterans, who recently secured a Point of Light award from the Prime Minister for being such an inspirational volunteer, and for the minor miracles he and others perform in the Rhondda, and across the Rhondda area wider, for so many veterans every single day?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Yes, can I very, very much thank the Member for raising this in the Senedd Siambr today? I know Buffy Williams will be pleased that you have got this mentioned on the record, because I know that she knows Paul well. I actually had the privilege of meeting him myself at a Falklands 40 event last year, and also a number of veterans awards events and others across Wales. You're right; he is an incredible inspiration to me and to many others and the support he provides to his peers is second to none, and the impact he's having is incredibly positive and is felt in communities, as you say, right across the south Wales Valleys. So, yes, I was very pleased to learn yesterday that Paul Bromwell from Valleys Veterans had received that Point of Light award from the Prime Minister, and I would not hesitate in joining with you in congratulating Paul on that very well-deserved recognition.

Homelessness

Delyth Jewell AC: 5. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of homelessness on the Welsh Government's aim of promoting prosperity and tackling poverty? OQ60224

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch. Welsh Government remains committed to ending homelessness, ensuring everyone has a safe home that meets their needs to support a healthy and prosperous life. We recognise poverty is an underlying structural cause of homelessness and our work to tackle poverty is critical in achieving our goal to end homelessness.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. At Christmas time last year, a local priest contacted me to say that a homeless man seeking help in the church hall sought support from local services, and was given a tent and told that they'd see him after Christmas. I raised this in the Chamber, and the Trefnydd agreed that this was unacceptable. But, until this week, the UK Government had a Home Secretary who argued that, for homeless people, living in tents was a life choice. Thank goodness she has gone, but I wonder how much faith you have that that same cruelty won't pervade the policies of this same old brand-new UK Cabinet. How confident are you that poverty will not continue to be seen as a lifestyle choice by Westminster? And, within your powers, will you talk urgently with the climate change Minister about a rent freeze for private renters, an eviction moratorium and the immediate implementation of the Warm Homes programme? And can you give an assurance, Minister, that, this Christmas, no homeless person in poverty, seeking help from social services, will be told to make do with a tent?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. I mean, it is shocking what was said by the former Home Secretary. I can't see that anyone across the Chamber would have subscribed to that view, that living in a tent is a lifestyle choice. It was shocking then. She's no longer Home Secretary, but we know that those views are prevalent, particularly—obviously, clearly—in the Conservative Party, which led to those calls.
It wasn't reflected in the King's Speech, but we are quite worried about what they might do in terms of the Vagrancy Act 1824, and the fact that there's this sort of attempt to criminalise, even, those who are homeless. But what we have to do is take responsibility here in Wales for supporting our homeless people. I think that it's very important, and this is something that is linked very much to our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, to address the need to tackle homelessness. I was glad to see the homelessness White Paper, investing £210 million in homelessness and housing support services.
It is about how authorities can work to reduce the number of people in temporary accommodation, of which—. Many are, as you know, in temporary accommodation, particularly B&B and hotel accommodation. In fact, for the last two years, we've provided those interventions through the budget worth more than £3.3 billion, and an extra £6 million for the discretionary homelessness prevention fund.
We should not be in a position where we have the example of that person who went to a priest, and then went to the authority, and a tent was provided. We know that that is not what we would want to be provided in terms of a service here in Wales. But I think that this is something where we are working hard. The homelessness prevention grant and the homelessness White Paper, obviously, which was very well supported when it came to the Senedd, will help us to tackle this. But it is very difficult.
We have an ending homelessness action plan. It's an all-age plan. It's a no-one left out approach to homelessness. It has saved lives. But it is very difficult, when we are in a situation where £900 million has been taken out of our budget this year, Llywydd, as everyone knows, as a result of the last, the March, spring budget and the spending review. So, we will be addressing these issues in Wales to make sure that no one is left out.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'll declare my interest again, in terms of property ownership. I have said time and time again in this Senedd, Minister, that it is your Welsh Labour Government that is failing on housing policy in Wales, and you're making the homelessness crisis worse: 10,931 individuals are currently now living in temporary accommodation, and, in my constituency, it is predominantly B&Bs and hotel rooms. Families in a hotel room. It's unacceptable.
Ninety—yes, 90—Welsh charities say that the homelessness sector is at risk of collapse due to a surge in demand and successive real-terms budget cuts by your Government. Cymorth Cymru and Community Housing Cymru say that without an urgent increase in the housing supporting grant, which funds the vast majority of support for the homeless in Wales, the entire system will collapse. So, will you, Minister, be encouraging your colleagues in the Welsh Government to act on the call of the third sector, and, indeed, the Welsh Conservatives on these benches, by taking homelessness more seriously and start building the much-needed homes that we need here in Wales? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Yes, well, you obviously didn't listen to the point I made in terms of the fact that we've been deprived of the funding that we need—deprived by your Government of the funding that we need to address this issue. [Interruption.] And also, the fact that you—. I recall when the Minister for Climate Change launched her ending homelessness White Paper here in Wales, you again came up with the same old issues—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: It's not old—[Inaudible.]

Jane Hutt AC: —and they do not recognise the challenges that we have got after 13 years of austerity. But what's important—and I will say again and the Minister for Climate Change would say it if she was standing here—is that creating more affordable housing is not only a priority for this Government, but a crucial need—[Interruption.] Listen, please, I'm speaking. You're asking the question and I'm responding. It's a crucial need across Wales and investing in social housing, we know, reduces poverty, which was the question that Delyth Jewell asked me, and it improves health and helps drive economic growth.
We are committed to increasing the provision, and we've set out record levels of funding to achieve this—£1.2 billion over the first four years of this Senedd term. It is a challenging time for the sector, but also we are supporting those initiatives, not just to deliver genuinely affordable homes, but also to ensure that we have that temporary housing with the transitional accommodation capital programme. In fact, tomorrow, I'm going to visit the gasworks site of transitional accommodation, which is really important in terms of helping people to move on from homelessness positions, but also to recognise that this is about more than having a roof over your head; it's about how we can break the cycle of homelessness, which has a wide range of causes and consequences. Actually, as the White Paper shows, this is a holistic, person-centred approach on which we're working very closely with the third sector to deliver.

Living Wage Week

Joyce Watson AC: 6. What did the Welsh Government do to support Living Wage Week? OQ60238

Hannah Blythyn AC: I was pleased to be part of the Wales launch for Living Wage Week on 6 November. As part of the week, the Welsh Government engaged in a number of events and communications. But our support for the real living wage is a year-round commitment, and we work with employers, trade unions and a range of partners to further living wage adoption and accreditation.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. The week has become an important annual focal point to champion and celebrate the real living wage and the impact that it has. So, I'm proud that Mid and West Wales is seeking to become a living wage region, following the example of Cardiff as a living wage city. Is the Deputy Minister able to provide an update on progress towards that recognition, and do you agree with me that the real living wage should be part of a wider approach to fair work?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Yes, I absolutely agree with the Member for Mid and West Wales, Joyce Watson, that the real living wage is a baseline, not a benchmark, and it should be taken as part of a broader package that supports fair work in workplaces across Wales, whether that's around your terms and conditions, your well-being, your ability to progress and access training or to access trade union support. So, it should be part of that wider package, but we do know that moving to pay the real living wage has a significant impact, not just on those workers, but on the workplaces. I heard it myself, with examples at the launch of Living Wage Week, Welsh-based businesses talking about the impact that it had made in terms of sustaining their workforce and moving to fairer pay and terms and conditions.
You're right to highlight this point that Mid and West Wales is indeed seeking to become recognised as a living wage region. I understand that good progress is being made. Since a steering group was established back in 2022, I know they're working to increase the number of workers paid the real living wage across the region, and the steering group actually hosted an event during Living Wage Week last week, in Carmarthen, to promote the work undertaken. I think it's around 550 employers in Wales who now have real living wage accreditation and around one in five of those are from Mid and West Wales. I had a bit of a look before I came out and, as you see, there are quite a lot of employers there who are now accredited employers in Mid and West Wales, and they range from businesses with two employees to over 2,000, so it shows the possibilities there and the potential for the difference that it can make.

The Gypsy, Roma and Traveller Community

Sioned Williams AS: 7. How is the Government supporting the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community in Wales? OQ60215

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for your question.

Jane Hutt AC: We support Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities by working with local authorities on their Gypsy, Traveller accommodation assessments. We also provide funding for Gypsy and Traveller sites capital grants and for a Travelling Ahead project at Tros Gynnal Plant Cymru to deliver advice and advocacy to Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Weinidog. I'm concerned about the woeful progress made with regard to supporting the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities in Wales, which is becoming even more acute during the cost-of-living crisis and has been evidenced in both scrutiny work and recent inquiries held by more than one Senedd committee, including the Equality and Social Justice Committee of which I'm a member. The Government, as I understand, financially supports just one small project, which you reference there, that focuses on supporting the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities through advocacy, covering the whole of Wales. I'm sure you'd agree, Minister, that we need to understand and also be reassured that adequate and effective support is being offered to what is, arguably, one of Wales's most marginalised and disadvantaged communities. So, can you outline the role and remit of the project and its host charity, the funding it's received to date and what evaluation has been carried out on any progress report submitted to date?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. This is a priority for me in my portfolio, and we have to ensure that local authorities are providing adequate and culturally appropriate sites where there is need. And I've mentioned, of course, that we're now working through their Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments, and we need to see how robust they are in terms of compliance with guidance and their responsibilities to support individuals.
We do fund, yes, the Travelling Ahead project. It delivers advice and advocacy support to Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities, and recently they brought together some Gypsy, Traveller families from across Wales, and I met with them to discuss specific concerns. Particularly as a result of that, I'm undertaking meetings with local authorities to discuss their current positions. I also would thank not just the Equality and Social Justice Committee, but the Local Government and Housing Committee for the work that they've done, because there are clear recommendations in that that align with the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'.
We're reviewing compliance with local authorities' duties in Part 3 of the Housing Act (Wales) 2014 to ensure there are enough pitches in each area. Also, just to say that I have had a series of meetings with councils across Wales, starting in Newport, and then in Conwy and Denbighshire, and I've got meetings arranged with all authorities. We've created this duty through legislation, we've funded local authorities and we've got funding worth £1.2 million to refurbish existing accommodation, but, clearly, we are not meeting all the needs as we assess the Gypsy, Traveller accommodation assessments, and that's why, working with the local authorities, we've got to deliver on this. It is a priority, and the meetings are taking place.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And finally, question 8. Tom Giffard.

Adequate Response Times

Tom Giffard AS: 8. How is the Minister working with police and fire services to ensure adequate response times? OQ60251

Jane Hutt AC: I thank you for your question. Our national framework for fire and rescue services requires the services to respond swiftly and effectively to all emergency calls. Responsibility for policing is not devolved, but we work closely with Policing in Wales to support the interface between policing and devolved areas such as housing and health.

Tom Giffard AS: I thank the Minister for her answer and I'm grateful to hear you acknowledge the importance of responding to emergency fire calls in a timely manner. A few months ago, I raised with the Deputy Minister for social justice about the fire on Windmill farm in north Gower, where bowsers were required and had to be sent from Tumble, which took over an hour to reach the location in north Gower. That was the nearest bowser, if you like, that was available to access north Gower at that time. I've met with the Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Authority since that time, and I was pleased to hear that they were considering adding a new bowser to their roster. Unfortunately, they seemed to consider that Port Talbot was the best place to situate that. Now, as you may already be aware, Minister, there is already a bowser located in Kenfig Hill, but they said that because that resided within the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority, not the Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Authority, they couldn’t calculate it towards their target response times, despite the fact it would be as little as five or 10 minutes away from the current bowser location in Kenfig Hill if that were to go ahead. So, whilst I’m grateful that mid and west Wales fire authority have recognised the need for a new bowser, will you work with them to ensure that these administrative boundaries between mid and west Wales fire authority and the south Wales fire authority are not a burden to sensible decision making in this way?

Jane Hutt AC: The Deputy Minister for Social Partnership heard that question and she will take that back, I’m sure, and that is an important point based on your original question to her about that response time. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister and Deputy Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We now have questions for the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution. The first question is from Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 1. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the impact of the UK Government's proposed tobacco and vapes Bill on devolved competencies in Wales? OQ60249

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government, along with the other UK nations, is currently consulting on proposals to create a smoke-free generation and tackle youth vaping. Once the consultation closes, we will analyse the responses and consider the legislative options, including the potential for the tobacco and vapes Bill to apply in Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Counsel General for that response. I had the pleasure of discussing important issues with the pupil council at Ysgol Glan y Môr, Pwllheli, recently. Of all of the issues that the pupils were concerned about, the main issue was concerns around vapes and the availability of vapes to children. Elan said that the use of vapes had increased among young people and asked what support was available to assist schools and young people, and Eimantas asked what the Senedd could do to stop vapes from being sold to young people under age. I know that the Government has introduced new guidelines for schools, but the new Bill on vapes and tobacco and England will tighten the rules in terms of the promotion and sale of vapes to children. So, does the Counsel General believe that the tobacco and vapes Bill will address the concerns of Elan and Eimantas, and does the Counsel General believe that Wales has the competence to do more to control the use and sale of vapes among children?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question, and it’s good to hear that pupils are discussing this, because it is very clear that the growth of vaping has moved away from a substitute for tobacco for smokers who want to give up smoking, and something that is very much being targeted at children. It’s very interesting as well that much of the vape equipment being produced now is in fact being produced by the former tobacco companies, who’ve moved from the one industry into the other.
The four UK Governments launched a consultation on 12 October, and they set out proposals for creating a smoke-free generation and tackling youth vaping, which I think is very important, and of course, this is something that applies across the UK. There is a common interest, and I think this proposal is something that has, I think, a unique element to it. One of the real concerns is, of course, the rise in youth vaping, and one of the objectives must be to reduce the appeal and availability of vaping to children.
So, the areas that are being looked at would be restricting flavours so that vape flavours are no longer targeted at children; regulating the point of display, which is very much often done in such a way that it is actually aimed at children and younger persons; regulating the packaging and presentation; restricting the sale of disposable vapes. This also is an issue when you talk about other things that can be done, potentially with the single-use plastics legislation and powers that we have, and I’m sure that’s something that the Minister will be wanting to consider. Whether regulation should extend to non-nicotine vapes, I think is also important, and I think also taking action on the affordability of vapes, including the introduction of a duty on vapes to increase their price and make them less attractive and less purchasable by children.
I’m grateful to you for raising that. This is obviously something that will be coming back to this Chamber, and I know that Ministers will obviously be concerned to ensure that the Senedd is fully briefed on this issue.

The Impact of the King's Speech

Alun Davies AC: 2. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government regarding the impact of the King’s Speech on criminal justice in Wales? OQ60245

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. I've not had any discussion with the UK Government about criminal justice following last week’s King’s Speech and ahead of the introduction of both the Sentencing Bill and the Criminal Justice Bill.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Counsel General for that answer. I'm sure the Counsel General, like me, would have watched the Supreme Court ruling this morning where the United Kingdom Government was ruled to have acted unlawfully. The judgment appeared to me to be an absolutely devastating judgment, which defeated the United Kingdom Government on almost every point of law.
The response of the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party was to say, 'Ignore the law'. The response of another Conservative MP was to describe judges as the enemies of the people. Counsel General, this place—this Parliament—has been rooted in respect for people, respect for the rule of law. Will the Welsh Government be responding to the Supreme Court ruling in any way? And will you tell this Chamber that this Welsh Government will always respect courts, will not abuse judges, will not say that we ignore the law and will always act in a humane way and deal with people with respect and morality, and will not seek to make examples of human misery and human suffering in order to grab a few cheap headlines?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I just say that upholding the rule of law, and international law, is one of the fundamental requirements, I think, of any democratic Parliament? We said all along that the Illegal Migration Act 2023 was unworkable. These proposals have not only been unworkable, they are unlawful and they have also wasted £140 million.
It's worth just looking at what the Supreme Court actually said. I've had a copy of the judgment; I'm working my way through it. But this is a summary of the judgment: the UK Government's Rwanda policy has been declared unlawful because there are substantial grounds for believing that asylum seekers would face a real risk of ill-treatment by reason of refoulement to their country of origin if they were removed to Rwanda.
This is a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court and in doing so, they rely on a number of issues: they say that non-refoulement is a core principle of international law, which you mentioned. It is also an area of the refugee convention that we are required to comply with. There is also Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and there is also the Human Rights Act 1998. So, there are three key pillars and it ill behoves any Government, or any elected representative, to suggest that Government should act outside the law.
I hope that those comments that were made were comments that will be disowned by the UK Government and, certainly, in my own position as Counsel General, I certainly disown them because they would be unacceptable to any democratic Parliament.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from party spokespeople. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The UN declaration on the rights of disabled persons adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1975 states that all disabled persons have the same rights as other persons and recognises the obstacles created by social institutions and society in general.
The UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities was adopted on 13 December 2006 and the UK ratified the convention in 2009. Disability Wales's recently released report, 'Barely Surviving', called, amongst other things, for the Welsh Government to incorporate the UN convention on the rights of disabled persons. It goes on to state that, despite its inclusion in the programme for government, there's still no timeline for incorporation of the UN convention. With limited time remaining in the legislative agenda, the Welsh Government must outline their plan for incorporation.
In 2018, the then National Assembly for Wales voted here in favour of a legislative proposalto incorporate the UN declaration into Welsh law, with cross-party support. So, what discussions and legal advice have your Cabinet colleagues sought from you on incorporating the convention into Welsh law within the time remaining in the legislative agenda?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank you for the question? You do raise some very important issues. Just to say, of course, we are bound by that convention, and we cannot do anything that is contrary to that within our legislation, and indeed the way we operate. And again, many of our activities are very much designed in order to fulfil the obligations of that particular convention. I have been engaged with my colleague the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt, and with other external participants, in a forum really looking at the issue as to how to incorporate this convention, and also other conventions, into our legislative and constitutional structure. It's not through a lack of willingness to do it, but it is an incredibly complicated process. One of the reasons is the way in which conventions are drafted and how they can be converted into tangible legislation that actually takes you beyond what our obligations are already and creates that clarity and precision in terms of improving not only the position for disabled people but also the implementation of the convention on human rights. Can I say that it is work in progress? There are groups of experts that have been looking at how this might be done. I think, equally, it's fair to say that they've also come across real difficulty, and it is because of the way in which conventions are actually worded—often aspirational. But converting that into workable legislation is a challenge. That work is ongoing. I'm happy to update in due course, but I can tell him I've been working very, very closely on a very regular basis with the Minister for Social Justice on how we might try to achieve this.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. I, and I'm sure all other Members, would welcome those updates.
But sticking with the Welsh Government's programme for government, you issued a joint statement with the social justice Minister yesterday on research to prepare for the devolution of policing in Wales. This stated that this commitment follows the unanimous recommendation of the Thomas Commission on Justice in Wales in 2019, adding that this includes understanding the impacts on cross-border working. However, despite my repeated questions to you regarding omissions about this from the Thomas commission report, you still failed to address the serious points raised.
The report makes only one reference to the key issue of cross-border criminality, in the context of county lines, and the only solution proposed is joint working across the four Welsh forces in collaboration with other agencies, without any reference to the established joint working with neighbouring partners across the invisible crime and justice border with England.
As I've also repeatedly stated that, when I visited Titan, the north-west regional organised crime unit, with the then Senedd cross-party group on policing—Titan being a collaboration between North Wales Police and north-west England forces—for a presentation on the impact of serious and organised crime, including the link with county lines and the supply of controlled drugs, they told me that evidence given to the Thomas commission was largely ignored in the commission's report. How, therefore, will you ensure that the team you've now commissioned will address this?

Mick Antoniw AC: Firstly, can I again thank you for raising that? I think it's an important point that you do raise. The issue of the devolution of policing is important. Our concern predominantly with policing, of course, is the integration of policing within all those other aspects of devolved services, which form part of a common jigsaw, in not only the delivering of justice but also dealing with many of the social issues that we have within our society that a modern police force actually has to deal with. It is also something, of course, that has been engaged by the four police and crime commissioners within Wales, all of whom are supportive of this. So, the growth of support for the devolution of policing, I think, is something that has grown, and is basically, I think, accepted fairly commonly among those who are involved in the justice sector, and I think also the same with regard to the police and crime commissioners.
Can I also say, on the devolution of policing, that we already have it in Northern Ireland, and we have it in Scotland? There is devolution in Manchester and it is also in London as well. None of that causes any specific problems. You are right to raise the issue of cross-border. Cross-border is something that is always necessary to be maintained, so that you have that strategic approach to policing across the board, and that will be something that will be very much in mind in terms of the research that we want. We think the arguments in terms of the merits and the rationale for the devolution of policing are pretty clear, and I think they are equally applicable not only to those areas that already have the devolution of policing, but also to other areas of England as well. I think that is recognised, and it's the same with aspects of the devolution of justice.
The reason for carrying out the research, of course, is because we want to actually build on that, to better understand it, to look at the mechanisms as to how the very issues that you raise would actually be dealt with in an environment where, I think, there is also a very recognised rationale for the devolution of policing in so many areas that affect our communities and relate to what is important about the localisation of policing. Considerable work has already been done, again, by the Minister for Social Justice, in terms of the policing partnership, which she is very heavily involved in. I've been grateful to be able to attend on occasion as well. I think the proof of the pudding will be when we see the research from the experts that have very clear expertise and practical expertise in this area. I'm sure that the work they do and the report they eventually produce will be of considerable value to all Members of this Senedd.

Mark Isherwood AC: Failure to address their statement that evidence given to the Thomas commission was largely ignored would, I am sure you accept, reinforce the impression that you would be pursuing policy-led evidence. Of course, the four police and crime commissioners are also party politicians and the powers of the mayors in London and Manchester, for example, are equivalent to a police and crime commissioner. I trust you're not proposing that those powers should be centred in a single person in Cardiff.
Although your statement yesterday included that the four police forces in Wales have already chosen to work together and with the Welsh Government and other bodies, police officers, from constables to chief constables, repeatedly emphasise that they cannot become involved in policy matters and their involvement is purely operational. When I visited the north-west region organised crime unit, they also told me, as I've said before, that all north Wales emergency planning is done with north-west England, that 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales is local or operates on a cross-border, east-west basis, and that North Wales Police have no significant operations working on an all-Wales basis.
Although you previously avoided responding to these facts when I've raised them with you, the officers who told me this included senior members of the then north Wales chief constable's command team, and I note that the review you announced yesterday will be led by that former chief constable. Given that justice and policing operate on an east-west basis across Wales, and that most people in Wales live in or near regions straddling the border with England, what assurance can you now provide that objective evidence from police forces and other relevant bodies across the border, but operating with forces and relevant bodies within Wales, will be included in the review?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the points, again, that you raise. I think some of the points, which are criticisms of certain operations of the police, seem to me to be supportive exactly of the reason why we think it is important that there is a devolution of policing, so they could be addressed within that broader framework. But leaving that to one side, I think, having commissioned now this expert evidence, the key way forward is to wait until that evidence comes, to then considerate it, evaluate it and then we'll debate it in this Chamber. The points you raise very generally I think are ones that will be addressed within that report and we'll be able to discuss within this Chamber. I think that is the way that we will take this forward.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: In last week's debate on water quality, more than one Member of more than one party had made the case for taking Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water back into public ownership. The First Minister himself, back in May, had said that he would welcome it if the Seneddwere to review whether the mutual model had achieved the benefits promised over 20 years ago when Glas Cymru, the parent company, was created. As a first step in that process, as it were, is the Counsel General in a situation to confirm that we as a Senedd have the competence to legislate to nationalise Dŵr Cymru as a water company that operates mainly in Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, what I can say is that water is not a reserved matter, other than that there are certain restrictions in respect of water, particularly where it may relate to water that is part Wales, part England, et cetera. The concern we would have would be the issue of competence with regard to being wholly or mainly in Wales. So, those are matters that could be considered by this Senedd and, if there were a review, it is certainly a review that would be very valid to be held within this Senedd.

Adam Price AC: When any company is nationalised, the legal question of the appropriate level of compensation for the owners is raised. There are plenty of precedents from the Supreme Court, the Court of Appeal and the European Court of Human Rights that have decided that parliaments, in the context of nationalisation, can set the level of compensation that is appropriate in their view within that specific context. In this case, as there are no shareholders at all, is the Counsel General of the view that compensation would not be legally necessary and, specifically, that there would be no need to pay compensation to creditors of Dŵr Cymru—bond holders and other lenders—because either those debts would be transferred under the same conditions to the nationalised company or, if there was a clause in the funding agreements to prevent that from happening, that the Senedd would have the power to overturn that, according to its own decisions?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the issue of competence is a very complex area and entails many factors. Glas Cymru is a corporate entity. That gives it, certainly, a legal identity. It is a private company, limited by guarantee. So, I suppose, regarding property, there are issues that relate to property that might well be legally engaged. There are also other property interests that would be engaged, as you mentioned, in terms of debts or in terms of bonds, and so on, by which Dŵr Cymru has operated. Those would certainly raise issues and matters that would need to be considered as well.
Any legislation would need to be considered carefully under section 108A of the Government of Wales Act 2006. As I said, Schedule 7A does contain some reservations in relation to water that would need to be very carefully considered. The company has no share capital and, as you said, there are no shareholders, but it does have individuals who are appointed as members who play a role similar to shareholders but with no financial interest. So, I think the best I can say at this stage is this: if there were such a proposal, then careful consideration would need to be given to the issue of competence.

Vagrancy Act 1824

Rhys ab Owen AS: 3. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government on progressing the repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824? OQ60231

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. We welcome the UK Government’s commitment to repeal the Vagrancy Act, something we've called for for some time, but we have concerns that its replacement may not align with our compassionate approach of supporting people experiencing homelessness into stable accommodation. Our officials have stressed this to their counterparts while we await the full details of the proposals.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. That is also my concern. As I've mentioned before in the Senedd, as a newly qualified barrister, I often saw vulnerable homeless people being prosecuted under this terrible Act, just for trying to survive. As much as we hope that attitudes have changed since then, it seems from recent statements from the now former Home Secretary that that just isn't the case. With a Government that promoted homelessness as a lifestyle choice and wants to punish organisations that provide tents and sleeping bags to people who would otherwise die to the elements, it's no wonder that there's been a massive backlash, with many charities saying they were willing to break the law and to go to prison just to show basic humanity. The former Home Secretary also wanted to apply her proposals to the Criminal Justice Bill, which was announced in the King's Speech, essentially making it a vagrancy Act 2.0. With the announcement last month from the Minister for Climate Change in this Senedd, will the Counsel General oppose any attempts by the UK Government to enforce this inhumane regulation? Diolch yn fawr.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Mick Antoniw AC: You make a number of very valid points. We recently published a consultation on our proposals to end homelessness in Wales, and our focus in this Senedd is on prevention, and when homelessness does occur, the importance is supporting people back into safe accommodation. As I said, the Vagrancy Act 1824, parts of it have been repealed over the years. What the UK Government has said clearly, though, is that it is not going to abolish it until its replacement is in place. Now, we do have concerns about what the replacement might actually be. It's possible the Vagrancy Act replacement may criminalise those who are homeless and in greatest need, whereas the evidence suggests that the focus should always be on supporting homeless people off the streets and into suitable long-term accommodation, rather than criminalising vulnerable people and individuals with complex needs.
I think we also—and I think this probably lies behind some of the comments you made as well—have concerns about some of the comments that have been made about tents and, in effect, victimising homeless people and those who are rough-sleeping. So, we would certainly not be supportive of anything that resulted in criminalisation, rather than something that looked towards actually solving the problem of homelessness and contributing to getting people off the streets. That would be the direction that we would want to take. We will continue to engage with the UK Government, and, of course, when further details of what exactly is proposed are shared with us—. At this stage, we really do not know. It's unfortunate that there hasn't been further detail to share with us so that we knew more about it at this stage, but I can assure you that this is something we're looking at very closely.

Senedd Reform

Tom Giffard AS: 4. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding the implications of Senedd reform on the devolution settlement? OQ60252

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. There are no implications of Senedd reform for the devolution settlement. I have consulted UK Ministers as necessary, where the Bill provisions have implications for a function of the Secretary of State under the Government of Wales Act.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you, Counsel General, for your answer. I note that, at the start of December, the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership will be bringing forward the electoral candidates list Bill in order to impose gender quotas on the next Senedd elections. Obviously, you will be aware that the special purpose committee looking into Senedd reform, as well as the expert panel and other academics and legal experts, have raised concerns around the competency of the Welsh Government to be able to legislate in this area. I know that's a view that you and the Welsh Government might disagree with, so I would have hoped that the Welsh Government would have worked together with the UK Government to find a way through to make sure that this Bill could be passed. So, imagine my surprise when, earlier today, I contacted the Wales Office to find out whether you had contacted the UK Government and I was told that you hadn't. Can you explain why?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, can I say that, in terms of the legislation that's going through that I'm responsible for, I wrote to the ministerial team at the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities on 11 September, consulting on the implications of Senedd reform for a function of the Secretary of State. The response from the Minister for levelling up contained no specific comments on the legislative proposals. However, the Minister for levelling up did note that there would undoubtedly be great interest in the Senedd reform proposals from those working on elections, and requested to be kept informed on the passage of the legislation. My officials have also engaged with the Ministry of Justice on the potential impact of the legislation on the justice system, and, following their review, the Ministry of Justice confirmed that the proposals had a nil or minimal impact on the UK justice system. The gender quotas Bill, which is the one that you have referred to, is not being brought by me, as it's not within my portfolio of responsibility. But what I can assure you, in terms of my functions as Counsel General—the assurance I give on every piece of legislation I comment on—is that matters that are within competence are a matter for me to comment on, to report on, as they are with the Llywydd as well. If there are matters in that Bill that are relevant to the UK Government, then I'm sure the Minister will engage with the UK Government where it is necessary and appropriate to do so.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Those of us who believe in the principles of subsidiarity, and also good scrutiny, believing that good scrutiny makes for good government and actually saves money, will support proposals around Senedd reform, but I wonder whether the Counsel General has turned his attention at all back up the other direction, looking at the possible proposals of a future incoming Government after a UK general election. I wonder what his thoughts are on the proposals, for example, in what is now known colloquially as the Gordon Brown report, not only in terms of a senate of the nations and regions, reflective of the different constituent parts of the UK—smaller, slimmer, more effective, more representative—but also the wider changes included around things such as the Sewel convention. Surely, Senedd reform is a really good step forward. What we now need also is reform of the UK institutions.

Mick Antoniw AC: You make a number of very valid points. Of course, included within the Gordon Brown report is also the reform of the House of Lords, which is desperately in need of reform, and where I think the use of peerages is a matter that is increasingly of concern to Parliament, and particularly the abuse of appointments. I'll leave that point there at this stage.
You make a valid point in terms of subsidiarity. Subsidiarity is about bringing decision making as close as possible to the people and the communities that are affected. I think this is something that we've discussed numerous times in this Senedd, but it is a fundamental part of the Gordon Brown report, and I think it is a very important basis for constitutional reform. Of course, Sewel is a convention. Sometimes, the status of a convention, and also a convention that is replicated in statute law in the Government of Wales legislation, is something that should be of importance, so it is of considerable concern that, constitutionally, it is increasingly breached and normalised. I would hope that an incoming Labour Government would want to ensure that the constitutional arrangements before the four nations of the UK are put back on a proper footing. I think the proposal in the Gordon Brown report whereby, in order for Sewel to be breached, there would be, say, a two-thirds majority in Parliament is something that has a lot of merit to it. It's a standard we apply here for constitutional reform. It would well be a standard that could apply in respect of Westminster and perhaps not conclusively resolve but actually go a long way to resolving the contradictions and dysfunctionthat already exist within our constitutional arrangements.

Devolution of the Justice System

Sarah Murphy AS: 5. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding the devolution of the justice system to Wales? OQ60216

Mick Antoniw AC: We have repeatedly made our position clear with the UK Government over the years since the Commission on Justice in Wales was published, but ultimately they do not support the commission's conclusion that justice should be devolved.

Sarah Murphy AS: Diolch. I would support everything that you've said there, Counsel General, especially as, according to the UK Government Ministry of Justice, UK prisons are at 98 per cent capacity, and it has been reported that two thirds of prisons in England and Wales are officially overcrowded, with inmates living in inhumane conditions. In fact, last month, the prison population of England and Wales reached an all-time high and, under this UK Government, Britain already had the highest per capita incarceration rate in western Europe. In response to this, the UK Government scrambled to free up space in overcrowded prisons with plans to send fewer convicted criminals to jail and a senior presiding judge telling judges to delay sentencing of convicted criminals now on bail—and that includes rapists and burglars—because prisons are full. But then this also heaps further pressure on a probation service already in crisis, with officials dealing with appallingly high workloads due to an exodus of both staff and experience. So, in conclusion, this UK Government has led the justice system in England and Wales into a serious crisis due to years of underfunding, backlogs and strikes due to poor work conditions. Considering this, Counsel General, what discussions have you had with the UK Government to address this crisis? And what steps is the Welsh Government planning to take to reduce dangerous overcrowding in our Welsh prison systems? Diolch.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the prisons, per se, are not devolved. Of course, we have important roles within the prison system, in terms of health and education, and of course we are preparing the ground in respect of the devolution of youth justice and probation. It is unclear exactly where the UK Government is going with its legislation. What is important, though, is that it is recognising—I think something that was well recognised within the Thomas commission report—that there are too many short sentences. Short sentences do not contribute adequately to our justice system. We know that there are many reasons why we should be moving towards more alternatives to prison and to arrangements within the community. Now, this is something that appears to have been recognised by the UK Government.
The prison system is in crisis. In the 13 years of Tory Government, it has increased from 45,000 to 90,000, but there are also major concerns that we have now that we are becoming increasingly aware of, particularly because of some of the work and the data that is now arising from the work being done by Cardiff University. The issue of having data to understand what is happening in our prisons, and then the prisoners who are then released then into our community and engaging with devolved responsibilities is really significant. We've raised it with Lord Bellamy, the Under-Secretary for justice, and, in fairness, that is a matter that is an ongoing, and regular now, discussion with Lord Bellamy.
But just to give you an example in terms of why our prisons are in such a dysfunctional state at the moment. Not only is it because in Wales we probably have the highest rate of imprisonment in the whole of western Europe—per 10,000 people of colour, 91 will be in prison; per 10,000 of Asian background, 28 will be in prison; those of a mixed-ethnic backgrounds, 41 will be in prison; from white backgrounds, 14 will be in prison. If you're black and you are sentenced, you are likely to get, on average, a 10-month longer sentence. So, the issue of the sentencing policy is, obviously, of some significance. If you're from a black and ethnic minority background, you're likely to serve a longer part of your sentence in prison. So, there are many other—. I could go on with a list of these that show how important it is that we not only address that issue in terms of prisons, that we look at those alternatives, and we'll obviously engage with UK Government on those alternatives. We do, of course, have to ensure that we are retaining confidence in the protection of the public, but what is happening at the moment is a gross and an offensive failure within the prison system and is one of the reasons that underpins our calls for the devolution of justice.

Services for Vulnerable Users

Delyth Jewell AC: 6. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government about the implications on services for vulnerable users, of the High Court ruling in the case of R. Shane Williams v Caerphilly County Borough Council in June 2019, regarding the closure of Pontllanfraith leisure centre? OQ60228

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 provides local authorities with the power to provide a range of recreational facilities, including sports centres, and enables local authorities to respond to local needs and priorities. The Equality Act 2010 and associated regulations form part of the local authorities' consideration when exercising their powers.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'm aware that a report about the future of Pontllanfraith leisure centre is being considered by Caerphilly County Borough Council today, recommending a consultation takes place on the permanent closure of the facility, which makes one wonder how the council have satisfied the court ruling from June 2019. What legal ways are there for services for vulnerable users to be protected across Wales, whichever public authority is responsible? How can we make sure that we save our leisure centres?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, can I just say to the Member, as locally democratic elected bodies, the local authorities are best placed to manage the organisation of leisure services in their areas, and it is their devolved responsibility. As part of their decision making, local authorities should of course be mindful to their public sector equality duties and consider the impact of their decisions on people who have protected characteristics. They also need to consider their duties under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. These provide a parcel of considerations to help local authorities to make reasoned decisions.

The King's Speech

Rhys ab Owen AS: 7. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the impact on courts in Wales of the new Sentencing Bill announced in the King’s Speech? OQ60232

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. We received only outline information on the Sentencing Bill, prior to its introduction yesterday, and I have had no explanation yet of how its provisions may impact devolved policy areas or, indeed, the reserved operation of courts in Wales. We therefore have not yet been in a position to make any assessment.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. Again, it's worrying to hear the lack of communication between the UK Government and the Welsh Government. The Sentencing Bill, recently announced during the King's Speech, sets out that judges will soon be required to hand down whole life sentences for the most serious cases. But as Sarah Murphy said in her supplementary question, this masks a real crisis in the criminal justice system. Judges are being asked to delay the sentencing of the most serious offenders who are on bail, because there's just no room left in prison. I saw that, last month, there were only 500 spaces left in all prisons in England and Wales, and that even masks the real crisis, because the majority of those were in women's prisons and young offender institutions. Does the Counsel General agree with me that it's the role of Government not to chase positive headlines and to appease a certain group of ideology, and agree with me that justice delayed is very often justice denied? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the points that really follow on from Sarah Murphy's comments. Well, you go further than that and, of course, what the Home Office have actually done has been to fund places, to almost book the cells, almost like a Booking.com of police cells, to ensure that there was additional capacity to the prisons. What they've also commented on is how they might book places abroad to outsource the prison places that they haven't been able to provide.
It's 13 years of failure to have any strategic justice policy with regard to prisons. And, of course, what's happened now is the chickens have come home to roost. We've now got to the stage, after 13 years of not only underfunding but the lack of any strategy with regard to prisons, that we now have those particular consequences. You know, it is difficult to understand how the warning signs have not been responded to, when you have doubled the prison population in 13 years of Government. And only now, in the last couple of months of this Government, or the last, I suppose, deaththroes of this current Government, trying to introduce legislation that attempts to make up for 13 years of failure.
We have a very significant interest as a devolved Government, particularly, for example, the things when prisoners are released, the provisions in terms of accommodation, the efforts to get people into work, what other support mechanisms that there are. Because the alternative, if that doesn't happen, is people end up back in prison, and that has been, of course, part of the problem. The other one is of course that there'll be far too many people in prison on short sentences that actually serve very little purpose. The expensive cost of prisons being used in a way, increasingly, and I think to satisfy populist demand, actually serve no real purpose. Twenty-one per cent of the women that are in prison are imprisoned for periods of one month or less. What purpose on earth does that actually serve?
So, we will obviously consider this legislation, the Sentencing Bill, which will have to be taken in conjunction with the Criminal Justice Bill, to look at what the implications are for us and for our responsibilities. But we certainly have a very, very different direction that we would want to take, and we will certainly feed that in at every opportunity, depending upon how far this legislation actually gets.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, question 8, Delyth Jewell.

Coal Tip Safety

Delyth Jewell AC: 8. What legal advice has the Counsel General given the Welsh Government regarding the coal tip safety programme? OQ60223

Mick Antoniw AC: Safeguarding our communities remains the Welsh Government’s top priority, and we will continue to discharge our responsibilities to do so. The Welsh Government is looking to bring forward new legislation to allow us to manage disused tips in Wales in 2024.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch. Thank you for that. The climate change Minister told me yesterday in this Chamber:
'The Secretary of State for Wales has co-chaired the coal tip safety summit for some considerable time.'
Yet in the letter that Members received from the First Minister on the announcement, that said, and I'm quoting here, 'For the record, I should add that the original intention was for this letter to be sent jointly with the Secretary of State for Wales, as agreed and recorded at the coal tip summit, but he now prefers not to add his name'. Counsel General, would you agree with me that this is unusual? What precedents are there for this kind of situation, and what impact will this have or could this have legally and practically on the coal tip safety programme? And would you agree with me that the Secretary of State is failing in the duties here expected of his office?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I say it is very, very disappointing that that has happened? I, of course, have no direct engagement with that, and the First Minister, of course, commented in response to questions to him. But it is indicative, isn't it, of a UK Government that has basically abandoned any of its obligations to the legacy we have in Wales of such a large proportion of the pre-devolution coal tips. We are disproportionately affected: nearly 40 per cent of the coal tips are in Wales. The mines inquiry's disused tips (Wales) Bill is scheduled for introduction next year. It seeks to enshrine in legislation a long-term, sustainable and fit-for-purpose regulatory regime for disused tip safety. And, of course, there was engagement between the Welsh Government and the UK Government at quite a high level and on a joint basis. There was a joint recognition. It really is I think very disappointing that the Secretary of State for Wales appears now to have abandoned that approach, and abandoned, really, the Valleys of south Wales where so many of these coal tips are situated.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Counsel General.

3. Questions to the Senedd Commission

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 3 is questions to the Senedd Commission, and the first three questions will be answered by the Llywydd. Question 1, Andrew R.T. Davies.

GB News

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: 1. Will the Commission make a statement on the decision to ban GB News from the Senedd's tv systems? OQ60226

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Following a recent broadcast by GB News that was deliberately offensive to women in public life in particular, I took the decision to remove the channel from the Senedd’s internal television system. That suspension will continue whilst the Commission seeks independent input to develop a broadcasting protocol to provide clarity and consistency on the channels to be available on the Senedd’s internal television system.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, Presiding Officer. Would you elaborate on the independent work that you've commissioned as a Commission to set the benchmark for what guidance might be going forward on what's available on the Senedd's internal network? And when might that work be completed, so that the Commission can make an informed decision about reinstating channels, if that's the outcome from the review?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I'm genuinely grateful for the opportunity to say a few things on this issue to Members this afternoon. GB News was not suspended by me because I might disagree with its editorial remit. It was not its political content that led to its suspension, it was the totally offensive misogynistic comments of Laurence Fox, facilitated by a GB News presenter. Laurence Fox was allowed unchallenged to speak of a female journalist—and I'm quoting here, Dirprwy Lywydd—and said:
'Show me a single self-respecting man that would like to climb into bed with that woman'.
And then he went on to say:
'Who would want to shag that?'
I'm conscious that my quoting these comments today in this Chamber may well be clipped for social media, and I may well have similar comments said of me by tonight. That's how women can be spoken of on social media and how one woman was spoken of on GB News. Don't expect me to tolerate it and don't expect me to facilitate it to be continued on the Senedd's internal television system. I know you don't condone these comments, Andrew R.T. Davies, but please understand and respect my attempt to protect women and men working in this Senedd from having to witness them on our internal Senedd system.
Now, on to the next steps. Firstly, I have written to the chief executive of GB News to ask what lessons have been learned from the Laurence Fox interview, and what new training and editorial guidance are in place to better deal with such contributions in the future. I've received no reply.
Secondly, GB News remains suspended and the Commission is seeking independent input, as you've outlined, Andrew R.T. Davies, to develop a broadcasting protocol to provide clarity on the channels to be available on the Senedd's internal television system into the future. In the meantime, any Member is, if they are desperate to watch GB News, able to pick up your phone or your laptop in this Senedd and you are able to continue watching it.
These matters will now be considered by the Commission. The independent review is going to look at these issues and provide the advice that the Commission is seeking to have. I’d be very grateful as well for any Members of this Chamber who have any views on this to make them known to me.
But, please, as we continue to discuss and consider these issues, let’s do it in a respectful, dignified way. Let’s not make flippant comments—flippant comments about me and my hair, even, on GB News. I took no offence from that comment, but I would want to ensure that Members, when we’re talking about these things, always consider that it is to have respectful and dignified public debate—that’s what we’re all seeking to ensure in this Senedd and in our communities.

Mike Hedges AC: I've been contacted by several constituents who are concerned that people are employed at taxpayers' expense to watch television. I agree with them. I have worked in places where the watching of television during working hours would have been a disciplinary offence. Apart from following the Senedd proceedings, and events such as the King's Speech and the autumn statement, why are people watching tv when they should be working?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have no idea, is my answer to that question. What it may interest you to know is that the decision to suspend GB News from the internal system—. It took a while for any Member to realise that it had been suspended. So, watching the television or watching that particular channel may not be as widespread as some people might like to think.

ICT Services

Alun Davies AC: 2. Will the Commission make a statement on the provision of ICT services on the Senedd estate? OQ60235

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Commission uses a broad range of modern technologies to support the work of Members and their support staff. We aim to deliver technology that will accommodate different working practices and allow users to work flexibly and safely from any internet-connected location.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Llywydd for that response. I submitted this question out of pure frustration, I'm afraid. I was trying to participate in a Zoom meeting in my office in Tŷ Hyweland losing contact, losing the signal, time and time and time again. My experience of working in Tŷ Hywel all too often is that the internal systems are not sufficiently robust to enable me to participate in meetings virtually. I would hope that the Commission will take a view on how we can ensure that we can continue to work virtually, particularly when we're here in Cardiff and want to hold meetings with constituents, and ensure that we do have the ICT systems in place to ensure and to enable us to do that.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That's not my experience, I must say, and I'm not familiar with Members having raised with me any problems with accessing Zoom for meetings with their constituents. I use the technology myself. But, if there are problems, I'm more than happy to make sure that we look into them and make sure that that infrastructure is fit for purpose. So, I'm glad you've raised it, and perhaps we can have a specific discussion around what and where the problems are that you've encountered, and, please, if any other Members are encountering such problems, we need to fix them.

The Cost-of-living Crisis

Delyth Jewell AC: 3. What measures is the Senedd Commission taking to help all Senedd staff during the cost-of-living crisis? OQ60227

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: During 2023, the Commission has made two cost-of-living payments to staff. Early in 2023, a £500 payment was made to employees to earning £32,000 or less. A second payment of £1,500 is being paid in two instalments in this financial year—one in October and the final payment due this February. The payment will be paid to everyone up to grade 6. The second payment was agreed after negotiations with the Commission trade union side.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that response. I welcome the news that Commission staff have recently received a cost-of-living payment of £1,500. Further to this, has the Commission made the relevant changes, do you think, following the increase in the real living wage, to ensure that staff on lower pay bands receive the equivalent wage, at the very least?
I understand that the remuneration board determines the pay and conditions of Members' support staff. Support staff currently have a 3 per cent annual cap on their wages, which means that that they have not received wage increases to reflect inflationary pressures. As I understand it, the unions are calling for the cap to be abolished for support staff.
Therefore, what steps is the Commission taking to work with the remuneration board to ensure that they have an adequate budget and funding to allow a wage increase in line with inflation, in the first instance, and, secondly, to ensure that support staff on the lowest pay bands receive the real living wage?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Well, the remuneration board is independent of the Commission, and it's the board that makes the financial bid to the Commission for the funds necessary for them to carry out their responsibilities. In the next item of business today, we will be discussing the Commission's budget for the next financial year. So, that principle of the independence of the remuneration board and its role in determining salaries is an important principle that the Commission must respect, and of course a statutory principle also.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 4 is to be answered by Joyce Watson. Gareth Davies.

Communicating with External Stakeholders

Gareth Davies AS: 4. What steps is the Commission taking to improve communication with external stakeholders in languages other than English and Welsh? OQ60225

Joyce Watson AC: I welcome this question, and thank you for it. We recognise that Welsh and English are the primary languages for our communications, but we do continue to explore opportunities to build relationships with new audiences by communicating in other languages that we know to be popular in Wales. To that end, during our election campaign in 2021, we distributed communications, both online and offline, in Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Polish and Urdu. And British Sign Language continues also to be an important language for us, with British Sign Language interpretation used online for First Minister's questions each week, to encourage participation in the work of some of our committees, and for special events, such as the recent 'We Belong Here' event.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that response, Commissioner. I appreciate that. Ultimately, many Members have individuals living within their constituencies who do not have sufficient Welsh or English language to understand sometimes quite technical representations made on their behalf in relation to serious, and occasionally life and death, situations. This means that either Members have to provide untranslated documents, knowing that constituents' ability to access material pertaining to their own lives is compromised, or they can choose to outsource translation to external providers at a huge cost and expense in time whilst general data protection regulation requirements are negotiated. In this instance, based on costs, we would only be able to afford the translation of 24 letters a year, taking all of the costs into account.
The Senedd and its Members have a duty to promote inclusion, accessibility and equality, particularly in respect of providing representations. At present, these values are compromised when representing residents whose English or Welsh does not allow them to access information that has importance in respect of their lives and well-being. As a national Parliament, these values—and the interests of our constituents—would be promoted with the establishment of an affordable in-house or in-house contracted service agreement with a translation service. So, can I ask the Commissioner what work and progress the Commission are undertaking in relation to this matter? And what discussions have you had internally and/or with external bodies on this matter to remedy the problem? Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: We continue to explore all opportunities and we do welcome Members' feedback, like the one that we've just had now, on any language barriers that their constituents see, so that that can inform all our efforts. As part of our communications and engagement strategy, we are developing improved audience insight to inform our work, including gathering improved insight on language barriers, through information from the census and through work with other partners. But we do recognise that there is always more work to be done in this space, and we will continue with our publications. Of course, your question was about translating materials that you want to send out to your constituents and the affordability and accessibility of being able to do that. I can't give you an immediate answer now, but I will seek to find an answer for you. I have no doubt that there'll be a conversation that will have to be had with the remuneration board that allows the costs for our offices to include this cost as well. So, you will receive an answer from me, but I can't give you a full and comprehensive one right now.

Gareth Davies AS: That's fine. Thanks.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Commissioners.

4. Topical Questions

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 is the topical questions. There is only one question accepted today. I call on Heledd Fychan.

The Welsh Rugby Union

Heledd Fychan AS: 1. Will the Minister make a statement following the release of the WRU Independent Review? TQ910

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank Heledd Fychan for that question? Members will be aware that I issued a written statement this morning on the publication of the independent panel's report. The Welsh Government welcomes the publication of this report, and we'll be working with all of those who contributed to the findings and recommendations.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. The report published yesterday pulls no punches and makes for difficult reading, with powerful evidence from women who have experienced unacceptable behaviour within Welsh rugby, and within the body responsible for running the game in Wales.
I recognise that the Welsh Rugby Union has acknowledged the report's seriousness in its response yesterday, and this is to be welcomed, and I agree with you in terms of the need for the union to act on the recommendations without delay to restore and regain trust. However, we also know that the Welsh Government were not entirely blind to the allegations before they saw the light of day in the BBC Wales Investigates programme broadcast in January of this year, and that Tonia Antoniazzi MP wrote to you in May 2022 drawing attention to concerns about the WRU and asking you to intervene personally in this matter.
It's crucial that the Government, which has a financial relationship with the union, has stringent processes in place to ensure the propriety of that relationship. The WRU has committed to learning lessons. What lessons have you, Deputy Minister, learned, and have improved processes been put in place to ensure that action is taken if similar concerns are ever raised with you in future?

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that supplementary question, which, of course, we have examined and explored many times, including when I gave evidence to the committee and when the committee published its report. A number of the recommendations in that report were for Welsh Government and they dealt with the issues of our internal processes and how we respond to issues around whistleblowing, and I accepted all of those recommendations. So, I think we have expressed very clearly that we recognise that things had to change and we have acknowledged that and we've given a full response to the committee on that.
But I think the substantive point here is to acknowledge the investigation into what has happened in the WRU. It was, after all, a report about the behaviour of the WRU, not about the behaviour of Welsh Government. The report really should be serving as a watershed moment that brings a change for the whole of Welsh rugby. I've only had a very short time to consider the report in full, and I'll be meeting with the WRU to discuss the recommendations and their wider plans to address those, hopefully over the next few days. And that discussion is going to include a focus on the expectations that I set out in my letter to the WRU immediately following that BBC investigation documentary, which included the need to ensure that staff were supported and investigations were concluded fully where they related to the alleged individual incidents.
The main issues identified by the report included concerns about disfunction at board level, about poor governance for such a large organisation, and a failure to adequately support the women's and the girls' games. Those issues led to an organisation that failed to address the serious institutional and cultural problems that it faced—a culture that was clearly misogynistic, racist and homophobic. And like you, I'm reassured that the WRU has accepted, without exception, all of the recommendations of the review panel, with significant progress having been made in some of those areas already, which you are aware of.
And the WRU really now has to focus on the task of further reforms to its governance and restoring trust with all of those interested in the game, including, and I think this is important, victims of unacceptable behaviour who so bravely spoke out about their experiences. So, I would welcome the recommendations, like you, in the report and establishing that oversight body to enhance transparency across the organisation. And I'm very much looking forward now to having that conversation with the WRU about how these recommendations will be implemented.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. For those of us for whom Welsh rugby has been a lifelong passion, this is a report that is heartbreaking to read. It's heartbreaking to know that the governing body of the game I love has treated people in this way. And reading page after page of accounts of how people have felt, working with and having worked alongside the WRU, it is heartbreaking that our national governing body has behaved in this way. And I therefore very much welcome the response of the WRU to this report, and I welcome the fact that they recognise where they are—that they've accepted the recommendations. I welcome also the response of the Welsh Government in ensuring that they work alongside the WRU to put these things right.
I think Members on all sides of the Chamber will want to reach out in love and solidarity to the people, to the women who have been treated this way by the WRU in the past, and I hope that all of us on all sides of this Chamber will want to work to make these things right, so that we can be proud again of our game, proud of our national sport and proud to go to the stadium and cheer on our teams. And I hope that, as we move forward, this will be seen, as the Minister said, not simply as a watershed moment for the WRU, but as an example of how we can put things right as well. I look forward to working with people in my own constituency and elsewhere to ensure that nobody else ever faces the sort of treatment and behaviour that we’ve seen outlined and exposed in this report.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I don't think there was a question there, Deputy Minister, but if you want to make a comment.

Alun Davies AC: There was a question there, it was, 'Does the Minister agree with me?' [Laughter.]

Dawn Bowden AC: Yes, just to thank Alun Davies for those comments and I would like to associate myself with them, because, I think, like all the sporting bodies in Wales, we have a right to expect the WRU to provide a safe environment for its staff, its players, for children and for young people who participate in the game at all levels. And what I would say, in just finishing my response to Alun Davies, is that our ambition for the WRU is for this to work as a catalyst that sees that organisation become a leader and an exemplar for fair treatment across all the nations and all sports, because I think that the WRU now has probably a once-in-a-generation opportunity to change its leadership, which it has done, to change its board, which it is doing, and to lead that cultural change in that organisation that means that people like those who came forward for that BBC interview never, ever have to experience anything like that again in their place of work.

Tom Giffard AS: It is a shame, really, that it took brave individuals coming forward to blow the whistle on this for this scandal, quite frankly, to be seen as widely as it has been. And can I also commend the work of the BBC on this in producing the documentary that they did? But a number of those individuals who came forward, and perhaps other individuals who would have liked to have come forward, were subject to non-disclosure agreements at the Welsh Rugby Union. And reading the report, it seemed as though the Welsh Rugby Union used these non-disclosure agreements almost as a matter of routine. To quote the report, they,
'seemed to be used even where junior staff left with extremely limited compensation'.
And the attitudes to complaints seemed to be that,
'they'll buy it off and bury it with an NDA.'
All these things undermine the culture of openness within the Welsh Rugby Union, and whilst I note that the NDAs were lifted, or waived, I should say, for those who wanted to contribute to the review, can I implore you, Minister, in your discussions to come with the Welsh Rugby Union, that that attitude, that approach, that openness, that you and I hope to see in the Welsh Rugby Union is extended, so that people who are currently subject to those NDAs have them retroactively lifted? Because I think it's very important that we don't end up in a situation where people cannot talk about the mistakes of the past to build a better future.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank Tom Giffard for that further question? I absolutely agree with what he's saying. Colleagues will know about my background, before coming into the Senedd. I spent 30 years involved in industrial relations, and having to negotiate my way through, on behalf of trade union members, with their employers, very, very difficult sets of circumstances. They often meant that the parties had to part company. And quite often, when those parties part company, you would have something called a compromise agreement. Now, a compromise agreement is something very different, because that does set out the nature of the employment relationship and how that is going to end, how that is going to happen. And it writes into it confidentiality clauses, because it is quite right that people should have their individual circumstances protected, and so that remains confidential. But that's very different to a non-disclosure agreement—the kind that we saw operating within the WRU.
The report quite rightly highlights that that is poor practice, and I would agree with that, absolutely. There are very limited circumstances in which NDAs should be used, and I would hope that, going forward, that does not become the modus operandi, as it has in the past, and that the WRU will again look at that and make sure that any agreements that they have with their employees in the future do not prevent them from doing the kinds of things that we saw in that BBC report, or prevent them from coming along and giving evidence to an inquiry, such as the inquiry we've just seen concluded. Because nobody should be prevented from speaking out and speaking the truth. And that's why I'm also very pleased that the report recommends that the whistleblowing agreements within the WRU should also be—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Deputy Minister.

Dawn Bowden AC: Just to conclude, Llywydd, it's—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You can go on, if you want to.

Dawn Bowden AC: I thought you were shutting me up; I do apologise. I was just concluding by saying that, to take that in the round, I absolutely agree, in essence, with what Tom Giffard is saying.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Okay. Thank you, Deputy Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: No 90-second statements were received.

6. Motion to approve the Senedd Commission’s Budget for 2024-25

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: So we'll move on to item 6, which is the motion to approve the Senedd Commission's budget for 2024-25. I call on Ken Skates to move the motion.

Motion NDM8404 Ken Skates
To propose that the Senedd in accordance with Standing Order 20.16:
Agrees the budget of the Senedd Commission for 2024-25, as specified in Table 1 of the Senedd Commission Budget 2024-25, laid before the Senedd on 8 November 2023, and that it be incorporated in the Annual Budget Motion under Standing Order 20.26(ii).

Motion moved.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the Commission's budget motion for 2024-25, and ask that it be incorporated into the annual budget motion.
As you'll have seen from the budget document, the Commission is seeking a total budget of £72.195 million, comprising £41.5 million for Commission services; £19.2 million for the remuneration board's determination; £101,000 for the office of the Standards Commissioner; £627,000 for costs associated with providing support to the independent remuneration board; £2.1 million to support preparatory work for Senedd reform; £1.5 million for the ways of working programme; and £7.1 million for interest and non-cash items.
Compared to the 2023-24 draft and supplementary budgets, the Commission's business-as-usual operational budget has increased by 2.5 per cent and 3.6 per cent respectively. This increases to 6.6 per cent and 7.6 per cent respectively with the inclusion of funding for those two work programmes: Senedd reform preparation and ways of working. The total increase to the Commission-related expenditure is £3.126 million, of which just over £3 million is to fund the Senedd reform preparation and ways of working programmes.

Ken Skates AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, can I say that I'm very, very grateful to the Finance Committee for their acknowledgement of the introduction of a medium-term resource framework and their understanding of how that will change the Commission processes throughout the year? As part of this new approach, we have included a savings target of £315,000 for savings on the operational budget, in addition to absorbing tough inflationary pressures and managing the Commission operational budget growth to just 2.5 per cent. The work to identify the detail of the savings is scheduled for late autumn, as part of the service planning and workplace planning exercise, and the Commission will approve these savings early in the new year. We thank the committee for their preparedness to change timings of receipt of information. The Commission are confident that the medium-term resource framework process changes will enable better budgeting and a fuller picture of the long-term financial position of the Commission, particularly on multi-year project planning.
Now, the pay award for Commission staff in 2024-25 has been budgeted at the cap of 3 per cent, as per the agreed pay award mechanism, based on the average increase in annual salary of hours and earnings for the last three years. The current pay deal will end in March 2025, and discussions have already begun in regard to the structure of the next pay deal. In line with budgetary processes, we have not provided for any unknown future staff payments in the budget. The budget does not include any provisioning for further cost-of-living payments to staff, which is in line with Treasury budgetary procedures, and should a request come forward, the Commission would have no option but to seek a supplementary budget. We've all seen the impact of the cost-of-living payment made this year by the Commission, the impact in particular on travel, training and the recruitment freeze on Commission staff and, therefore, their workloads. As the Commission budgetary structure cannot carry any reserves, this leaves it unable to manage such a large one-off expenditure without service impact.
We continue to be committed to preparing budgets that are robust, transparent and facilitate the highest level of support to Members in their important work of legislating for the people of Wales and holding the Government to account. We have, therefore, included two additional ring-fenced budgets within the Commission budget this year. The first is to support the preparatory work for Senedd reform. As the Bill has only recently been produced, there is still a level of uncertainty about the work that the Commission will have to undertake. Should the course of the Bill progress differently to our expectations and some of the funding not be required, it will be returned to the Welsh consolidated fund.
The second is the ways of work programme, which is the management structure supporting the delivery of the estate, people and sustainability strategies. The work this year will include addressing Tŷ Hywel's lease expiry in 2032, known as the Bay 32 project, where the Commission will consider options on how to provide the necessary space for Members, their support staff and Commission staff post 2032. Doing nothing is not an option for us as a Parliament. The Bay 32 project will need to progress to deliver a solution on time. Again, at this stage, there is a level of uncertainty about the potential final direction of the decision making. The budget for ways of working, therefore, reflects the need to budget to ensure all options are able to be taken forward for consideration, and again, the Commission undertakes to return any funding that is not required. We also continue to ring-fence the budget for the support of both the remuneration board and the standards commissioner.
I'd like to thank the Finance Committee for its scrutiny of this budget and its continued commitment to ensuring the fairness and transparency of the Commission requirement, whilst continuing to ask questions that drive performance and deliver excellence. And the committee has made 11 recommendations, all of which we have addressed in our response provided to the committee. The first recommendation was that the committee supports this budget, which we note and sincerely appreciate. And the remaining recommendations covered the following areas: medium-term resourcing framework, pay awards and staff well-being, providing further information on the remit of the Bay 32 project, providing details of projects to be invested in, providing information on the external consultancy services requested by the independent remuneration board, encouraging the Commission to continue to explore energy reduction initiatives for both the Senedd estateand constituency offices, and to provide, when available, the Member and public engagement programme for 2024-25. It's important to say that, as with all our work as a Commission, we seek to engage with Members across the Senedd for their views and to ensure that those views are reflected within our service delivery. This is important as we now deliver Senedd reform and the ways of working programme.
We have accepted all the committee's recommendations, and we are, as ever, open to suggestions on how to improve our budgeting process and provide value for money to the Welsh public purse. We're willing to answer any questions that Members may have. In the meantime, I'm happy to put forward this budget on behalf of the Commission and reiterate our commitment to working in a way that is open and transparent, delivering the best possible value for money for the people of Wales.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Before I begin, I would like to thank Ken Skates, the Senedd Commissioner for budget and governance, and Senedd officials, for attending the Finance Committee's meeting on 5 October to discuss the Commission’s budget proposals.I am also grateful to the Commission for providing its response to our report ahead of this debate and I'm glad to see that eight of our recommendations have been accepted and three noted.
Overall, the committee supports the Commission’s budget for the next financial year.In the current context, it is essential that steps are being taken to maximise savings and manage costs.We were therefore particularly pleased to hear that the Commission will actively look to identify savings from now on, and we look forward to hearing about progress in this area during the next financial year.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: That said, there are also areas where we sought improvements. Although the committee notes actions taken by the Commission to find in-year savings, we would have liked further clarity on the impact these savings will have on Commission services in 2024-25, including any planned projects. Given the reductions made to the Commission’s budget at the beginning of the current financial year, the committee also felt that the Commission missed an opportunity to include figures comparing its budget request for 2024-25 to the revised figures in June, which showed a reduction in its annual budget of £435,000. This is unfortunate, as including these figures would have provided an additional level of clarity that would have enabled us to better compare funding levels from one year to the next.
Turning now to specific areas within the report, firstly the workforce, we recognise the efforts made by the Commission to support its workforce, both within the current financial year through additional cost-of-living payments and in planning for a pay award in 2024-25. As a committee, it is not appropriate for us to take a view on operational matters within the directly funded bodies. Nonetheless, we have a natural interest in the financial impact of such decisions, particularly when it impacts the Commission’s ability to deliver its services. We therefore ask the Commission to provide us with regular updates on any pay agreements made in 2024-25, including details of how any changes to staff pay and/or additional payments are to be funded whilst sustaining current levels of service.
Then moving on to Senedd reform and ways of working, Dirprwy Lywydd, a significant and understandable focus is given in the Commission’s budget to supporting Senedd reform. Detailed costs relating to increasing the membership of the Senedd are included alongside the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill, which is subject to separate scrutiny arrangements and on which the committee will report in the new year. I do not wish to say much about those costs today, other than to welcome that they are ring-fenced within the budget and presented in a transparent manner. This is not to say that more could not be done to provide further clarity relating to costs associated with Senedd reform and changes to our ways of working. That is why the committee has requested further information relating to the Cardiff Bay 2032 project. This includes issues relating to the lease of the Tŷ Hywel building and obligations in terms of replacing windows, both of which will incur significant cost. We welcome ongoing engagement with the Commission on this point, including the offer of a technical briefing on this initiative.
Turning to engagement and sustainability, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to close by making reference to two areas of particular interest to the committee. Whilst the committee is pleased with the progress made by the Commission’s sustainability initiatives, we believe that more could be done, particularly in reducing energy usage, both on the Senedd estate and in Members’ constituency offices. In terms of the Commission’s engagement work, we recognise the good work being done but are disappointed that associated cost details were not provided within this year’s budget documentation, and we would like further clarity on these proposals as a result.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: To close, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is paramount that we have a Senedd that is high performing and well resourced, that is valued and trusted by the people it serves. To achieve this, the Commission must manage its resource in a prudent and proportionate manner that is mindful of the wider financial context in the Welsh public sector. As a committee, we support this budget to deliver against that objective, but we ask the Commission to provide us with the additional levels of transparency that we requested so that we continue to robustly hold its financial decisions and actions to account. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First off, can I thank my colleague Ken Skates for not only working with the team to produce the budget, but also for speaking on it today? I'd like to also thank our chief executive Manon Antoniazzi and our team of staff throughout the Commission. Of course, the budget for 2024-25 totals some £72.195 million for the operational budget, and, as has been expressed—and I'd like to thank you, as well, in the Finance Committee for the work you do in scrutinising it—we do have the two extra budget lines, one for the ways of working and then one, of course, for Senedd reform.
As a Commission, we do continue to face interesting financial challenges, not least of which was the cost-of-living payment afforded to Commission staff during this mid-year term, and that did cause excessive pressure in order to find some £900,000, as we were at the behest of the trade unions. It was further disappointing with the refusal of a supplementary budget by the Welsh Government—this certainly compounded the problem. A large percentage of the Commission's total operating expenditure does relate to staffing costs, 71 per cent. The operational budget has made provision for a pay award in the staffing budget of 3 per cent, using the annual survey of hours and earnings index-linked five-year settlement, again agreed with the trade unions.
I just want to reiterate the point made earlier by Delyth Jewell MS regarding what still seems to be the inequality of pay between Commission staff and Senedd Member support staff, who work extremely hard in the same way as Commission staff and are also facing the financial costs of living and higher energy costs. I've raised this time and time again. I've raised it with people. We get referred to the rem board, and I have to say, despite raising it numerous times, I'm waiting to see just how the remuneration board work, because we're now on the term that we're on, and I just feel that that needs to be definitely looked at.
A further challenge for us, of course, as Commissioners, is the cost now required for Senedd reform—another 36 Members, staff and amendments to this Chamber and lots of other issues that will arise as a result of the cost of this reform. Over £0.5 million on jobs has been approved in 2023-24, over £100,000 on three new jobs, and over £1.3 million on capital costs. That's a total cost of £2 million. The role of the Commission budget is, and I quote,
'to meet the running costs of the Senedd.'
So, one assumes that it's the Senedd at any current time, and yet it is a fact that we're now feeling already the squeeze that Senedd reform is. My constituents and, I know, constituents across Wales are already questioning the need for extra politicians at a time of stretched budgetary financial implications that they are facing themselves.
We also do need, and I've raised this in Commission meetings, to be reassessing the Commission's income-generation capacity. I've made those feelings known. The budget states that the estimated revenue income will be around £100,000, and yet, before, we've set that at £200,000. So, as a businesswoman myself—. You only have to look around; we've got some fabulous buildings in our estate. I am not too convinced why we're not realising the financial potential of these buildings that we are responsible for, such as the Pierhead, the Senedd itself, the regional offices, and the numerous rooms in Tŷ Hywel and the Senedd that often lie vacant on a daily basis.
The remuneration board has been raised with me and I’ve probably—well, I have—stood here before now raising some concerns about the remuneration board, its relation with the Commission, and how well it serves Members in carrying out their very, very important roles. I believe that if Senedd reform is going to go forward, now is a good time to have a look at the legislation framework that surrounds the rem board and whether there may be a better model of doing it, or a review into the board itself as to more effective working with this board. At the end of the day, Members have to feel they have confidence, when carrying out their important roles, in the board, and that it actually tells us exactly what we can spend on what. And there we are. Thank you.
Oh, I’d like to just thank the Llywydd, because at the end of the day, she runs the Commission meetings and everything, and it can be a tough call sometimes.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I'm sure she appreciates that.

Mike Hedges AC: Is it the case that you can go over time if you say something nice about the Llywydd? If so, can I start off by saying ‘thank you’ to the Llywydd? I won’t take up very long.
I’ll be supporting the recommendation. I was a member of the Finance Committee that scrutinised this budget and what happened in that committee has been very nicely outlined by Peredur earlier in the discussion. I thank the Commission for the savings they have made, but I wanted to raise the point that the Senedd Commission budget and the budgets of the auditor general and ombudsman are dealt with differently to the main Welsh budget. They are funded against their scrutinised budget proposals, which, in a time of growth, is a very sensible way forward. However, I’m not convinced it works during times of cutback. We need to have a mechanism where all expenditure is considered against exactly the same criteria. I can think of a large number of bodies that are funded by the Welsh Government that would love to be directly funded by the Senedd, because they would get what they needed, rather than what the Welsh Government can afford. I think that we need to treat every piece of expenditure exactly the same.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Ken Skates to reply to the debate.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I also thank the Llywydd for her support for the work that was undertaken in preparing the budget? I likewise thank my fellow commissioners who supported this budget. I’m presenting it on behalf of all commissioners. I’d also like to thank the chief executive of the Commission and her team.
In response to a number of points that have been raised this afternoon, can I say that the work of the Finance Committee was outstanding? I’m really grateful for their support for the budget. At this time last year, I undertook to identify in-year savings. We did that as a Commission, we found those savings, and we are determined to ensure that we run the tightest possible budget we can.
The point of the workforce was raised, and costs associated with salaries. Now, 71 per cent of the budget is allocated to staff costs and the increase in salaries next year will be 3 per cent. I think that therefore represents just how tough we’ve ensured spending can be managed for the next financial year, given that the operational budget is increasing by 2.5 per cent on the draft budget that was laid last year. And I can promise to undertake regular updates on both the ways of working programme and Senedd reform.
In terms of sustainability, I would agree with the Chair of the Finance Committee: it is absolutely vital that we strive to reduce our carbon footprint whilst also ensuring that we make savings due to energy efficiency schemes. I can provide further details of the short-, medium- and long-term schemes to Members that can capture how many tonnes of carbon each of the projects will save, and also the actual cost saving. I’ll happily do that following today’s debate.
The actual programme of work is dependent on the availability of funding, and as Members are well aware, the project fund is just one of very few areas of discretionary spend that the Commission has to be able to invest in energy saving schemes, but we are striving to identify as many areas of funding as we can for that purpose. I'd like to say that in terms of the in-year cost-of-living payment that was referred to by Janet Finch-Saunders, that, of course, reflects this year's budget, not next year's budget. It was due to actions originating in Westminster, but, as a Commission, we agreed to pay the cost-of-living payment, given the incredible pressure that many employees, particularly the lower paid, were under, because of sky-high levels of inflation.
Now, pay is a matter for the Independent Remuneration Board. The Independent Remuneration Board is independent of any influence from myself and any other commissioners. Any areas of concern regarding pay must be directed to the independent board, and in terms of Senedd reform costs, perhaps I should put the costs in context. Overall, we try to keep any increase in the budget for the Commission to an absolute minimum, and we try to ensure every single year that the Commission funds do not exceed 0.3 per cent of the block grant. In spite of those two huge new projects, ways of working and Senedd reform, I can tell Members that we have once again maintained a budget that is beneath 0.3 per cent of the block grant. And for further context, the spending that is allocated for—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You need to conclude now, because I've given you a lot of flexibility.

Ken Skates AC: Apologies, Dirprwy Lywydd. The spending that is allocated for Senedd reform next year amounts to £72 million, so, in other words, 0.008 of 1 per cent of the block grant. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection, therefore I'll defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: A Bill to prevent the sale of single-use vapes

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 today is the debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill to prevent the sale of single-use vapes. And I call on Jenny Rathbone to move the motion.

Motion NDM8366 Jenny Rathbone
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a proposal for a Bill that would prevent the sale of single-use vapes.
2. Notes that the purpose the Bill would be to:
a) remove from sale all single-use vapes;
b) meet Wales's global responsibilities under the Well-being of Future Generations Act;
c) address the fact that single use vapes are a danger to public health;
d) protect future generations from health problems including damaged lungs; and
e) end the use of lithium in single-use products.

Motion moved.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Diolch yn fawr. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Some of us will recall that back in 2016, when Mark Drakeford was the health Minister, we had the chance in Wales to do something that would have protected young people from the risks that vaping and e-cigarettes can bring. Unfortunately, the opposition ganged up against it, and so, close to the end of the fourth Senedd, these clauses had to be pulled from the Public Health (Wales)Bill. Since then, we've allowed the tobacco companies to run rip by repackaging their shrinking tobacco sales into nicotine vapes. New vaping sales outlets are springing up on a weekly basis, with more and more people becoming caught up in this addiction. All that money spent on helping people to quit smoking was money well spent, as smoking remains the biggest cause of early death, but Rishi Sunak's good intentions to raise the legal age for anyone to buy cigarettes so that no young person currently aged 14 will ever be able to legally buy a cigarette will be a bittersweet pill if, at the same time, we do nothing to stop young people becoming hooked on vaping.
Just as caffeine drinks were targeted at children, these raspberry and bubble gum flavours are deliberately designed to satisfy the palates of primary school children as if they were sweets. In a meeting last week on liver disease, we heard that children as young as four and five are using vapes. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance of 2021 is hopelessly out of date, as it even excludes children under 12 from its considerations. We must take a precautionary legislative approach to this public health disaster that is undermining the goals of the Well-beingofFuture Generations(Wales)Act 2015. One, we want a healthier Wales. Although Cancer Research continues to promote e-cigarettes to help smokers quit or to stop you going back to tobacco, they are clear that if you have never smoked, you should not use e-cigarettes. There is no good evidence that vaping causes cancer yet, but vapes are addictive. A single-use vape delivers anything between eight and 20 times the nicotine of the average cigarette. That in itself makes them much more difficult to quit than smoking.
We already know they are bad for your lungs. The chemical cocktail produced by heating up the liquid for vaping includes: acrolein, most often used as a weedkiller; diacetyl, a food additive used to deepen the vaping flavours; and formaldehyde. These are all linked to lung damage. What is going to be the impact in 20 years' time on addicted young vapers?
Vaping is also undermining the goal of a resilient Wales, playing our part to avert the climate emergency. The 1.3 million single-use vapes dumped into general waste each week pose a huge environmental hazard, with over 700 fires in bin trucks and recycling centres across the UK caused by the vapes' flammable batteries, which contain lithium. Recyclers report that it's not cost-effective to separate the lithium from the vapes, so millions of tonnes of this precious white gold, deemed essential for electric car batteries and energy storage, is instead stoking fires and are new hazards for waste disposal. It also undermines our aspiration to be a globally responsible Wales. Over 75 per cent of the world's reserves of lithium are to be found in the lithium triangle bordering Argentina, Bolivia and Chile, around the Atacama desert. In order to extract lithium, miners have to drill holes in the salt flats and pump salty mineral-rich brine to the surface. This involves around 500,000 gallons of water per tonne of lithium, in one of the driest places on earth. It takes about 12 to 18 months to extract the lithium, justified by its role in helping the planet transition from fossil fuels, whilst creating a massive environmental disaster, which is impacting on the very existence of the indigenous communities who rely on these underwater reserves to grow crops and maintain livestock. Lithium extraction has already consumed two thirds of the region's water supply.
So, today, I ask Members to support my legislative proposal to ban single-use vapes and only allow e-cigarettes to be made available on prescription, to support those who want to quit smoking.

John Griffiths AC: May I begin by thanking Jenny for bringing forward this legislative proposal, which I very much support? I had a short debate here recently, Dirprwy Lywydd, along very similar lines to the ones that Jenny has just briefly outlined, and I very much agree that vaping is a growing public health menace, as well as having the environmental consequences that Jenny Rathbone has mentioned.
In my own constituency, I've met with primary school staff and primary school pupils who are very, very concerned about the prevalence of vaping at that tender age. It has all sorts of unwanted consequences: the health problems that Jenny mentioned, the environmental issues in terms of the lithium element, as well as the disposal of single-use vapes, but also, of course, storing up health problems for the future. It's still quite early with vapes, isn't it, but already there's emerging evidence of the health impacts as, again, Jenny Rathbone has mentioned.
It seems to me, Dirprwy Lywydd, that that value of vapes in terms of getting people off smoking tobacco and vaping instead, is significant, but I think the best way of approaching it, as Jenny has mentioned and the First Minister is on record as saying, is that prescription-only approach as a matter of supervised support to give up smoking tobacco. There is a role there, but I believe that that is the limit of the value, really, of vaping.
So, I'd very much like to back this particular proposal from Jenny Rathbone today, to deal with all of these issues. In terms of the single-use disposable vapes, as well as the environmental impacts, I know that those disposable pod vapes, which seem to be becoming more fashionable, do allow particularly high levels of nicotine to be inhaled, and therefore they do pose a greater risk, and children and young people are more likely to develop nicotine dependencies than adults, and indeed nicotine can impact their brain development. So, there are particular issues there for children.
I do believe that when we look at all these matters, Dirprwy Lywydd, we should bear in mind the terrible cynicism, really, of the companies that promote these products and the way they direct them towards young people—the colours that are used, the marketing, the way that they're displayed. It’s really, really cynical and designed to target young people without any care for their health or other impacts. And in many respects, it's the tobacco companies, who did so much to hook people on tobacco, who are now doing the very same thing as far as vapes are concerned. So, there are so many good reasons, I believe, to back this proposal today, and I'm very happy to do so.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm really grateful to Jenny Rathbone for tabling this debate today. I'm equally concerned by the increased prevalence of single-use vapes, many of which contain nicotine, and it really is distressing to see the increase in use amongst our children and young people. My colleague Lynne Neagleand I have both been considering this issue from our different perspectives, so although I'm responding on behalf of the Government today, it's obviously a cross-Government concern that we're looking at.
Wales has made great progress to stop young people taking up smoking and to help smokers quit. Our current consultation with the UK nations to create a smoke-free generation has the potential to eradicate smoking for good. But as Jenny Rathbone and John both highlighted, over recent years, the tactics being used to market disposable vapes, with attractive packaging and flavours, has seen increasing numbers of children and young people trying vapes and becoming addicted, with serious consequences for their health. It can be argued that vapes can aid quitting smoking, and in certain circumstances they may, but there's no evidence of that for single-use vapes, and they have proliferated because they are extremely addictive and attract people to a cheap hit of nicotine.
The regulatory landscape around vapes needs to urgently change to deal with this very rapidly growing and highly dangerous waste stream. The UK consultation includes proposals to restrict these products and prevent them from being used by children. I would really strongly encourage all Members to ask their constituents to make their views known on this important matter during the consultation, and indeed, of course, for Members to make their own views known. One of the things that really strikes you when you look at this in any detail is that, of course, you need a licence to sell alcohol, but you need no licence at all to sell tobacco and these really quite damaging products.
Single-use vapes are also having an absolutely devastating impact on our environment, as Jenny highlighted. Research by Material Focus has shown that nearly 5 million are thrown away each week—a fourfold increase between 2022 and 2023, so in one year. The Scottish Government's report highlighted the significant environmental impacts when vapes are not recycled. Littered vapes can, as Jenny said, release lithium, cadmium and other extremely toxic chemicals into the environment. They can combust within waste facilities, with economic and environmental consequences. And the damage from these chemicals can be very long-lasting indeed. Here in Wales we are still dealing with the expensive and dangerous legacy of chemicals that were not disposed of decades ago. We really don't need to add to this for no good reason at all.
Single-use vapes and their packaging also increase plastic waste in the environment, which can break down into microplastics and enter our food chain. And very sadly today, you'll find littered single-use vapes on practically every street, every beach, every hillside. This is a rapidly accelerating environmental catastrophe that we really must stop before it's too late.
So, I met with Ministers and senior officials from across the UK back in September to discuss single-use vapesand we've all agreed to work together to tackle the impacts, up to and including consideration of an outright ban. Disposable vapes are undermining our drive towards a circular economy and the need for products to be more durable, long-lasting and consume less of the earth's natural resources. Over 360 million single-use vapes are brought each year in the UK, with valuable and critical minerals, as Jenny has highlighted, like lithium and copper, regularly then being discarded. The volume of wasted materials is estimated to be equivalent to the batteries of nearly 5,000 electric vehicles, as you've said, Jenny.
The Welsh Government will continue to work closely with the other UK nations on the public health aspects of this and to reduce the environmental impact and littering of single us e-cigarettes. The proposed four-nations consultation on extended producer responsibility reforms recognises this and the Welsh Government supports the proposal for a new category for vapes, to ensure producers fully finance the cost of collection and treatment, which we think will markedly move away from the single-use market. We'd also like to see the new producer responsibility controls introduced as quickly as possible to complement the other proposals to limit the supply of single-use e-cigarettes.
Officials continue to work with Trading Standards Wales to develop proposals to support their work on illegal vaping products and tobacco in Wales. Some of the illegal products have been really startling in their content and the harmful nature of them. We also continue to work with the UK Government to ensure Wales is part of the intelligence network, and to learn from approaches elsewhere in the UK.
So, I'd like to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, by thanking the Member for bringing forward this debate. I know many of you, like me, are deeply concerned by the health and environmental impacts of these single-use vapes. I've listened carefully to Members' views today. I've worked closely with my friend and colleague Lynne Neagle on this. We will be talking with the UK Government about accelerating both the consultation and, then, the outright ban on single-use e-cigarettes, actually, not just vapes—there are slightly different products on the market—because of both the public health and the environmentally wasteful, highly damaging and dangerous nature of this product. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. It took large parts of the twentieth century to even get the tobacco industry to admit that they were causing widespread lung cancer, and they continue to promote tobacco across the world in countries that simply haven't got the sort of health service that enables us to treat it. These next-generation products of the tobacco industry tell you that these people haven't gone away; they've just simply repackaged themselves, and I recommend TobaccoTacticson the University of Bath's website if you want to see the details.
I thank John Griffiths very much for his short debate, because it established that there was concern across the Senedd for this issue, so I'm a little disappointed that no other Member, backbencher, apart from yourself has actually—[Interruption.] I'm happy to take an intervention.

Cefin Campbell AS: If you'll just take an intervention, I would just like to express my thanks to you for bringing this forward, Jenny. It's such an important debate to have, and so many young people have been in contact with me over the last 12 months in particular, and I've met schoolchildren as well, who have told me that they want a ban on single-use vapes. And I would like to use this opportunity to commend those young people for getting in touch with many of us, I'm sure, alerting us to the dangers they see themselves of their friends and colleagues using these single-use vapes. Would you share with me the encouragement I've heard from the Minister's response that she is happy to accelerate the process with the UK Government and other devolved nations so that we can bring about a total ban of single-use vapes as soon as possible?

Jenny Rathbone AC: I absolutely share your enthusiasm for the fact that the Minister is going to be working with UK Ministers to try and accelerate some legislative proposals, because we know that it is disrupting lessons, it's causing young people to go out of lessons, because they simply can't wait until the end of the lesson before they get their next hit. James, did you want to come in?

James Evans AS: Thank you, and thank you for bringing this forward, Jenny, because vaping is a serious issue that does affect our young people across Wales. One thing that I hope you agree with me on is that we actually need to see more enforcement from our trading standards departments as well. These should not be sold to under-18s, children. So, I'd just like to get your thoughts on whether we should be putting more money into our trading standards departments to make sure there is stricter enforcement around the sale of vapes to young people.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you for that. I certainly know that it's in the UK Government's King's Speech legislation that it would give new powers to local authorities to enforce the age limits. And I would actually prefer a UK-wide piece of legislation, because, otherwise, if we did legislate only in Wales, it could provoke the smuggling of illegal products targeting Wales, which would obviously be a very perverse outcome. But we can't rely on the UK Government to make time for this, because there seems to be all sorts of other things on their minds at the moment. So, I hope that we can get cross-party support for at least stopping our young people from having their lives ruined by something that is apparently quite neutral, but is, actually, probably extremely harmful.
So, I think my final remarks are to thank the Minister for that cross-party support that we've got—well, cross-Government support. The consultation that is being run by the UK Government doesn't close until 6 December, so I think it's very important that all of us encourage our schools and other interested parties to submit evidence, to ensure that the UK response is one of urgency. So, thank you for listening to me.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: International Men's Day

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 8 is the Welsh Conservatives debate on International Men's Day. I call on James Evans to move the motion.

Motion NDM8405 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that International Men’s Day 2023 is taking place on 19 November: an annual event to highlight the importance of recognising and addressing the mental and physical health challenges that men face.

Motion moved.

James Evans AS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'd like to move our motion today, tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar.
International Men's Day is an opportunity to recognise and celebrate the remarkable contribution made by men and boys in our society and across the world. It is a day dedicated to highlight the issues that affect men, such as the high rates of suicide and poor academic performance. There are also issues with physical health, with men being more likely to get lung cancer and heart disease. There also can be a lack of willingness to seek help and talk about problems, and that is something that needs to be addressed.
Mental health issues amongst men is a topic rarely spoken about, and I welcome the opportunity today to highlight this. According to a report, one in every eight men experience a symptom of mental health, and 35.2 per cent of men believe that they have had a diagnosable mental health condition at some point in their lives, and that statistic is shocking. It does highlight the grave impacts that mental health can have on men's lives.
Men also experience social marginalisation in different aspects of life, including homelessness, young boys going into care, school exclusions and men in custody. Men can also be victims of violence, crime, including bullying, sexual violence, gang violence and other criminal activities. Additionally, men face unique challenges as parents, particularly as new and separated fathers, and boys and men are often portrayed negatively in the media when they're separated from a partner. But, wider than that, men have an additional role with addressing domestic violence and teaching younger generations of men about positive relationships with women. And if we are to address domestic violence with women, we need to educate men about the role that they play in addressing this issue.
But a key focus of International Men's Day this year is tackling male suicide in the western world. Men die by suicide three to four times more often than women. The disparity may be due in part to a greater reluctance amongst men to seek out mental health services, and there is an expectation around masculine behaviour that often says to men, 'You need to man up and not talk about your experiences', and that is a great shame. It is a well-known fact that men in rural communities and in the farming industry—. It's a male-dominated industry, and they are at increased risk of suicide. I think we all know somebody in our own farming communities who we've lost through suicide. Our farming industry has experienced turbulent times over the past few years, and the expectations on our farmers are greater. As well as being one of the most rewarding professions, it is also, I believe, one of the loneliest. And it's also one of the most unpredictable, when farm viability is questioned time and time again. I'm deeply concerned about the rise of suicides among our young farmers. The Farm Safety Foundation addresses the issue of poor mental health, and they say that mental health is faced by 94 per cent of farmers under the age of 40—94 per cent of farmers under the age of 40 experience a mental health issue. That statistic should alarm anybody.
But I do think, to address this, it is about effective communication, not just in farming but in all industries. It's an integral aspect of addressing mental health in both men and women. However, as I said earlier, societal norms often dictate that men should suppress our emotions and that should be done from a young age. I can remember myself being told not to talk about your emotions. And that wasn't said by my father. It was actually said by my grandmother that men didn't cry, men didn't have emotions—you shouldn't show them; it's a sign of weakness. And I think that's still ingrained in some people today. It is a harmful aspect of male upbringing, and it can prevent men and boys seeking out the help they want, and that is why we do see a lot of men losing their lives to mental health issues.
We do see as well that mothers tend to have more conversations with their daughters than their sons. Mothers tend to encourage their daughters to express their emotions, to talk about how they feel, but I don't sometimes think—well, not from my experience—that that was explained to me. A lot of my friends will say the same, that it wasn't encouraged to speak out. It does affect the self-esteem of young boys and their communication skills, and our willingness to communicate with healthcare professionals in later life. How many times have we heard men say, 'Oh, I don't go to the doctor, I don't seek them out', because they were never in their younger life encouraged to do so. As I said, this could have serious implications for their physical health and also their mental health. Therefore, it's imperative that we create a safe and supportive environment for boys and men to express their emotions and seek help without the fear of judgment and stigma.
I want to talk about a charity that's really close to me, and it's the Men's Shed movement. It's a global initiative that was started in Australia that helps connect men with each other in safe and supportive environments. The movement aims to tackle the issue of social isolation and loneliness amongst men, which, as I said, can often lead to those physical and mental health problems. Men's Shed provide a space so men can come together to work on projects, learn new skills and simply enjoy each other's company. I went to one Men's Shed in Ystradgynlais where they were all reworking wood; it was actually a really good place, and it was a very good laugh, actually, and a very good cup of tea as well.
But one of the key benefits of the Men's Shed movement is it gives men that sense of purpose, that sense of belonging again, by working on those projects together. It's a lovely thing to have that sense of accomplishment and pride, and when many people finish their working life, as well, they're not quite sure what to do, and a Men's Shed gives you that opportunity to go there and do that. But it also encourages men to open up about their feelings as well. There's nobody else there, and it encourages them to talk about what they're feeling, how they're feeling, and the people there are trained to actually encourage men to talk if they want to. You don't have to, but you can talk if you want to. It does break down the barriers that prevent men from seeking help, and I'd like to hear from the Government a bit more about what support they can give to Men's Sheds across Wales as well, because I do think they are vitally important.
There is a great opera on at the moment. It's calledShoulder to Shoulder and I'd encourage anybody across the Chamber to go and watch it when it comes to Cardiff or your area, and that was actually inspired by Men's Sheds and highlighting the issues there. I've been to watch it, and it was one of those things where you'll cry in it but you'll also laugh in it, but it is really poignant and does explain the challenges that men face. But it was called Shoulder to Shoulder to reference the fact that so many conversations that men have tend to happen when you're shoulder to shoulder with someone; they don't happen when you have eye-to-eye contact. As I said, it's currently touring around, and I would recommend every Member, Deputy Llywydd—that they go and see it.
So, to conclude, I'd like to thank the Chamber for this opportunity today to speak about this important topic. I don't think we get the opportunity enough to raise the issues that men face. That's not to do down any other group that we talk about in here, but I think to talk about men's issues, to talk about the issues they face, will give some men out there in Wales the courage to talk about their problems, talk about their health issues and how they can collectively come together to address it. Diolch.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important debate about the mental and physical health challenges that men face in Wales at present, and I'd like to thank James Evans for the thoughtful and empathetic way that he opened this debate just now.
We've heard already about the tragic reality that suicide is the main cause of death for men under the age of 50, and it should be a source of great concern to all of us that rates of suicide in Wales remain high and well above the average rate for England and Wales. The fact that the median registration delay for coroner reports on suicides is significantly longer in Wales compared to England also suggests that the true scale of the issue is not fully reflected in the statistics.
Prostate cancer is another area of men's health that has witnessed worrying trends of late. The impact of the pandemic has led to a 26.5 per cent fall in the diagnosis of prostate cancer in Wales, which is undermining the ability of health services to provide effective early treatment. Instances of drug misuse, which are particularly common amongst men, are also at their highest levels in Wales since records began.
But when it comes to addressing the root causes of these issues, I would urge the Welsh Conservatives to reflect on the failures of their own party in this area. Thirteen years of Tory-driven austerity at Westminster has had a devastating impact on physical and mental health services across Wales, with many local authorities struggling to provide even the most basic level of support. The correlation between the underinvestment in front-line services and mortality rates has long been apparent. For example, research published at the end of last year by the Glasgow Centre for Population Health and the University of Glasgow has revealed that 335,000 additional deaths occurred between 2012 and 2019 as a result of austerity policies.

Gareth Davies AS: Will you take an intervention, Mabon?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Go for it.

Gareth Davies AS: Thanks. What would you say, then, to the fact that health and social services and a lot of things around mental health have been devolved to Wales for 25 years?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Gareth makes a good point. I will be coming on to the Welsh Government in a minute, but they also have a limited budget that they have to work within, and that budget is handed down. As a consequence of austerity, the cuts that they’ve received have meant that they’ve got less money to share between the services that they need to provide.
As you say, the Welsh Government also bears responsibility, particularly the uncertainty caused by its recent rebudgeting exercise. I’d welcome an update from the Deputy Minister in her response on whether the Government’s pledge to provide the mental health portfolio with an additional £19 million in 2024-25 remains on track. Life expectancy decreased for men by an average of seven weeks across the UK between 2018 and 2020. Unsurprisingly, these trends have been more pronounced in poorer communities. Avoidable deaths accounted for 37 per cent of all male deaths in the most deprived areas of Wales in 2020, compared with 18.9 per cent in the least deprived areas.
So, if we want to be serious about getting to grips with the issues raised today, therefore, it’s imperative that the politics of austerity are utterly rejected, and that underinvestment from Westminster and the Welsh Government alike in key sectors is reversed as a matter of urgency.
International Men’s Day also gives us the opportunity to consider the corrosive influence of toxic masculinity in our society, which has been proven to have detrimental mental and physical health implications for men and women alike. As noted by the Mental Health UK charity, toxic masculinity contributes to the poor mental health outcomes for men, particularly in terms of substance abuse and rates of suicide. It creates harmful expectations around gender identity and emotional expression that often prevent men from seeking the support that they need, as we heard from James earlier.
Toxic masculinity is also a factor in the shocking prevalence of violence committed against women. According to the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, 1.7 million women experienced some form of domestic abuse across England and Wales last year, which equates to 6.9 per cent of all women over the age of 16. And recent revelations have also exposed its pernicious presence in politics. We’ve heard multiple allegations over the past year pointing to a culture of entitlement and sexism amongst male politicians, which has proven to be a major barrier for women seeking to enter politics. I’m proud of the fact that, through our co-operation agreement with the Government, we’ll soon be delivering reforms to this Senedd to embed parity of gender representation on a permanent basis. One of the clearest ways that we can sap the potency of toxic masculinity in our politics is through reversing the historical under-representation of women in positions of political influence.
From a wider societal perspective, it’s also our moral duty to challenge toxic masculinity wherever it’s found, and to promote a modern version of masculinity that’s inclusive, emotionally well-rounded and that views efforts to achieve gender parity in all walks of life as something to be celebrated rather than a threat. Gender equality benefits us all. Let this be our rallying cry for International Men’s Day this year.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Altaf Hussain AS: I'm pleased to be taking part in this debate today, as we prepare to mark International Men's Day this coming Sunday. It is important to acknowledge the challenges faced by men across Wales. As we strive to create a more equal Wales, we have rightly focused upon tackling the inequalities faced by women and girls. However, we can’t ignore the challenges faced by men, often driven by the same cultural practices that have driven the unequal society for women and girls.
The same toxic masculinity—as was said earlier—that puts barriers in the way of our young women has also driven mental and physical health inequalities in our young men. Being told to ‘man up’ and that ‘boys don’t cry’ is the message that society has delivered to many young men. As a result, they have grown up in the belief that they can’t seek help for what ails them. We are programmed from birth to bottle up emotions; that showing vulnerability or weakness is not on. As a result, many men choose to suffer in silence. It is little wonder that male suicide rates, as was said earlier, are so high.
Three in every four registered suicide deaths in the UK are in men. Yet, according to the most recent population figures, men make up less than 50 per cent of the population of England and Wales. Far too many men take their own lives, and this is why one of the key themes of this year’s International Men’s Day is ‘zero male suicide’. If we are to achieve this aim, we have to tackle mental health issues in men, as was focused on by James.
We have to get the message across to boys that it is okay to talk about mental health, that it is okay to seek help, that it is okay not to be okay. Sadly, this is an uphill battle. Societal attitudes to masculinity have ingrained the complete opposite for generations. The Priory Group asked a cohort of men the reasons why they do not talk about their mental health, and here are some of the responses: ‘I have learned to deal with it’; ‘I don’t want to be a burden’; ‘I am too embarrassed’; ‘I don’t want to appear weak.’ That is the challenge that we are facing, and unless we act now to educate future generations, we will continue to see large numbers of male suicide deaths. We all have a role to play in tackling the stigma and tackling toxic male stereotypes.
So, why should you be embarrassed to seek help for depression? We can’t allow men to suffer in silence, just because that is what society has led them to believe. We need to shout it loud and clear, that talking helps and is nothing to be ashamed of. So, I urge Members to support our motion and ask that we all do what we can to eliminate male suicide. Diolch yn fawr.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I start by endorsing the comments from James Evans in relation to domestic abuse, and the role that men must play in becoming role models in ending domestic abuse? Just before I came down to the Chamber—. I wasn't planning on speaking today, Llywydd, in this debate, but I have just done a video in anticipation of White Ribbon Day, which is coming up in the next couple of weeks, and about the importance of men making that change to make sure that they do not commit or be a bystander in any domestic abuse settings.
But, moving to perhaps the main premise of the motion in front of us today, and men's mental health in particular, and male suicide, James, who opened the debate for the Welsh Conservatives, will know that he and I have had many conversations away from the political battles of the Chamber about our own issues with mental health, and I am grateful for his friendship in doing that.
We have heard already, haven't we, this afternoon about the higher rates? I think that James used those words. I have lost far too many people personally to suicide. Six years ago last week, I lost Dad. Fourteen months ago tomorrow, I lost my best friend of 20-plus years. Mabon ap Gwynfor, for Plaid Cymru, said it's the biggest cause of death in men under 50; dad was 47, Jamie was 28. I must say, Llywydd, that without the support network of my friendship group, my girlfriend and my family, me coping on a day-to-day basis may be very different. And believe me, I have my own dealings with mental health and struggles with mental health quite regularly; I've said before that I take medication on a daily basis to help with my depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.
But it's not just about those networks with friends, family and loved ones, it's also about those networks in our workplaces as well. On the way down to the Chamber, I saw a tweet from my trade union, Unite Wales. It was a social media post, as Daz Reynolds, the site convenor of Unite in Airbus in Broughton, along with his colleagues in the trade union and representatives for the workplace, attended an event today about opening up about mental health, particularly in the workplace. I think that goes, again, to the important role that trade unions can play in endorsing and advocating for their members and ensuring that mental health is taken seriously in workplaces across Cymru. So, I want to place my thanks to Daz, Kyle and the others who attended that event today, and, of course, Airbus for putting it on. I would encourage workplaces right across Cymru to follow their lead.
Those comments there have come from the heart, Llywydd. They've been scribbled down on a journey from the office down to here, but I think it's ever so important, isn't it, to try and make people understand that there is a problem when it comes to mental health issues, both for women and men. Sadly, we see the statistics of male suicide being ever so high. I think all of us in this place and outside of this place, but particularly Members elected by the general public, must do all they can to try and make sure that that statistic comes drastically down, because we want to live in a place where suicide does not take place, and we can all live with mental health issues, because we all do have mental health problems. Some days, it's better for others than it is for certain people, but we should all do and commit to doing all we can to try and address that problem. [Interruption.] Sure.

John Griffiths AC: Jack, thanks for taking an intervention. It so happens that I met with the Association for Project Safety Wales just yesterday, here at the Senedd. They're involved in the construction industry and they flagged up mental health as one of their primary concerns at the moment in terms of the training and safety issues that they engage in with a range of professionals in the construction and design industry. And that mainly male construction workforce, I think, is one that really needs to benefit from those policies and the work that that organisation can do. So, I guess there are so many organisations that can play a part in that and we really need to encourage them to do so.

Jack Sargeant AC: I agree entirely. And that brings me nicely to perhaps sum up my contribution, Llywydd, to agree fully with John Griffiths and what he says there. It's not just in construction, but there is some great work going on; Airbus is a particular example. I would encourage the Government to try and pull some of those examples out there together, where we can transfer them into other areas, like construction, like farming and agriculture like James Evans said, and all the other areas that we find ourselves in, so that we do live in a better place where mental health is able to be spoken about, and support is also there, where required.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm pleased to make some remarks in this important and substantial debate this afternoon, and I thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling this timely motion this afternoon to mark International Men's Day, which falls on Sunday, 19 November. It's important to mention the contribution that men make to society and Wales as a whole, in the past, present and future.
I've been aware of International Men's Day, of course, but I wanted to look into it further to understand the origins of it and what it actually stands for. I was impressed to see the compilation of the six pillars of International Men's Day in their contributions to the nation, the union, society, community, family, marriage and childcare, plus the fact that the detrimental issues that men face in terms of parental alienation, abuse, homelessness, suicide and violence can act as barriers to achieving the six pillars that I've mentioned.
The statistic that men are more susceptible to suicide is, unfortunately, a statistic that needs improving. That's not to say that women's mental health issues are secondary to this, or should be increased, it's just to highlight this fact and bring the rates of male suicides down and implement the correct level of mental health support in our communities to remedy this problem. In addition to this point, I'd like to make it clear and reiterate that this debate or my remarks are not in any way a detriment to the issues that women face in Wales, but I believe it's only dutiful as Members of the Senedd that we allocate time to make sure that this Parliament reflects the real-world issues that many people face in Wales, and, indeed, the consequential impact that the issues men face have on women in Wales as well, bearing in mind the six pillars that make up the basis of International Men's Day.
I share quite openly the mental health problemsI have had and continue to have, and have spoken in this Senedd Chamber in great detail in the past. The reason I wanted to raise that is not for self-promotion or publicity; that was to use my role as a Member of the Senedd to highlight those problems, to increase awareness and help men and people in general who don't feel like they have a voice to speak up to contact their local GP or mental health services and to share their issues in a safe environment with the right people at the right time. I felt that being open about my mental health struggles has helped me to become a better person generally, and I would encourage anybody to do the same.
Aside from mental health and more generally, I think it's only right and dutiful for us as Members of the Senedd, as mentioned, with a duty of care and responsibility, to do all that we can to promote International Men's Day alongside the suite of other events that we mark to make sure that nobody slips through the net in Wales and raise awareness of the issues that men face in a modern Wales. Let's just remember that if it was your son, your father, your husband or partner, your uncle, your grandfather, your nephew, friend or any other male relation that was struggling and needed support, surely you'd want to do your best for them and give them the support and care they need. Every one of those men is either all or some of those relations, so let's bear that in mind and support the motion tonight.

Peter Fox AS: This is such an important debate to have today on International Men's Day. As we've heard, men's health encompasses a range of issues, both mentally and physically, and focusing more on mental health as a theme today, it's an incredibly important discussion, one that we as men don't have enough. I'm glad that we are having this debate right now. Men, especially those over 65, and I'm going to focus on rural areas for a moment, are particularly at risk of mental health challenges, and, sadly, these same men are less likely to seek mental health support, with surveys showing that just two in five men in the countryside were willing to reach out for support. This is largely down to the fact that many men in the farming community often face incredibly busy and stressful lives and don't take the time to look after themselves.
Statistics from the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution show that a third of men in the farming community consider themselves as being depressed. The Minister for rural affairs was right yesterday in her statement where she was mentioning the stress that rural matters can have on farmers, particularly surrounding bovine TB, for instance. This is very true, and when coupled with other issues that many farmers are facing such as financial issues, relationship issues, it can become totally unbearable, leading to many terrible consequences as we've heard earlier. This is combined with the fact that over half of the farming community experience some form of physical pain and discomfort as well as a result of their hard lives.
There are examples of great initiatives reaching out to farmers, offering support, like the Monmouthshire Rural Support Centre, based at Raglan livestock market, where volunteers are reaching out to farmers to help them and signpost them to give them support. But I feel like we need more initiatives like that to engage, certainly, with farmers, in the places where farmers go. There are many great initiatives, as we've already heard, but we need more to address men's mental health all across the country.
Another area where men in particular can feel vulnerable and struggle with life is when relationships break down, stopping them from having access to their children—following a separation, for instance. These situations can cause terrible stress, leading to serious mental health issues. I had the privilege 12 months ago of meeting with an organisation called Both Parents Matter Cymru, a charity supporting men who have no access to their children through no fault of their own, an issue that can leave many men feeling absolutely helpless. The process of separation can just leave them so lonely and isolated, and I know many of the men I talked to had thought about suicide. This particular charity supports the process of applying for a family court hearing, providing free legal advice from solicitors and assisting applications for legal aid. It also supports male victims of domestic abuse and provides emotional support through their buddy group, providing a safe space for those looking for emotional support. There are a wide range—[Interruption.] Sorry, yes.

Mark Isherwood AC: The Office for National Statistics states that a third of the victims of domestic abuse are actually male, and, shockingly, boys—children. Do you agree, therefore, with me that we need specialist tailored support accessible to people in safe spaces in their own areas if they are victims or survivors—men and boys as well as women?

Peter Fox AS: Absolutely. We take nothing away from the terrible problems that some women have to face day in, day out, but there are men and boys who are facing terrible situations as well, and they do need to be able to access the support they need to help them through those very difficult times. Often, people ignore men in that domestic abuse situation.
As I was saying, there are a wide range of charities that support boys and men, covering a wide range of issues, including young men’s personal development, domestic abuse, fatherhood, infertility, both physical and mental health, and it’s vital that men are made more aware of these services. These charities play a pivotal role in supporting both boys and men in Wales and I want to express my gratitude for all that these charities do. This is why, as part of International Men’s Day, organisations and individuals are being encouraged to contribute support in order to sustain and promote their efforts. As a society, we must work to combat stigma surrounding men looking for help. There is no shame in it, nor is it a sign of weakness. So, I hope everyone here will join me today in supporting this motion, recognising that addressing the physical and mental health challenges that men face is really important. Thank you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Deputy Minister to contribute to the debate. Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I’d like to start by welcoming the debate here today focusing on men’s health. As Members have said, the global theme for this year’s International Men’s Day is zero male suicide. Preventing and reducing suicide is a top priority for me, and whilst the causes of suicide are complex, suicide is preventable and is not inevitable. We know that men are three times more likely to die by suicide than women, with the highest rates among men aged between 40 and 49.
As I’ve said before, the loss of someone to suicide has a devastating impact on families, friends and whole communities. We all have a role to play in suicide prevention. As I’ve said before, suicide prevention is everybody’s business and everybody’s opportunity. Middle-aged men are a priority group in our current suicide prevention strategy, ‘Talk to me 2’, and they will continue to be a priority as we are developing a new suicide and self-harm strategy for Wales.
But to have an effective approach to prevention, we are working to better understand the factors that contribute to making some men more at risk. We know that men are less likely to reach out for support, so providing more options to encourage men to seek help is key. One way in which we are seeking to address this issue is through our ‘111 press 2’ service. The ‘111 press 2’ service is now available in every health board, providing urgent mental health support to people of all ages 24-hours a day, seven days a week. This is a significant service transformation to improve access to mental health support. Over 30,000 individuals have accessed the service and 97 per cent of callers report a reduced level of distress following the call. Importantly, 41 per cent of callers accessing the service are men. We know that men are traditionally less likely to reach out for support and it is really encouraging that our new '111 press 2' service is proving to be accessible for men.

Lynne Neagle AC: As well as mental health, there are a range of other risk factors, including unemployment, financial strain or insecurity, substance misuse and gambling. As part of our continued efforts to improve our approach, we have commissioned a range of work to support us in identifying the groups of men most at risk to help us target support. This includes a rapid review of evidence by Bangor University, and our national suicide and self-harm programme lead has organised an all-Wales men's suicide and self-harm prevention discovery workshop on 2 December. The workshop is an event that is being developed by men for men to explore men's needs, identify barriers to accessing support, enhance collaboration and share best practice. The findings from this event will be key to informing our future approach.
Last year, I convened our cross-Government suicide and self-harm prevention group, and it is now well established. The group will use this evidence to help shape further cross-Government action across health, housing, transport, education, social services, policing and custodial settings, welfare and employment. But not only do we want to prevent suicide, we want to deliver policies and services that promote good mental and physical health among men. When it comes to physical health, we know that men are more likely to suffer from heart disease at a younger age than women and are twice as likely to suffer from lung cancer. The reasons behind this are multifaceted and complex. For example, we know that men can be less likely to seek medical attention for early warning signs of disease and less likely to attend subsequent follow-up appointments, meaning disease can be diagnosed and treated later than it otherwise could have been. This is why screening can be such an important tool, and I know the health Minister is currently considering our approach to the UK screening committee's recommendations to roll out lung cancer screening in Wales for those identified as at a higher risk.
We also know that some men are more likely to engage in behaviours that put them at higher risk of some diseases, such as smoking and alcohol consumption. We have a variety of strategies and policies that aim to tackle these factors, including working towards Wales being smoke free by 2030 through our tobacco control strategy and tackling obesity and overweight through 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales'. As part of the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy, I'm really pleased that we've been able to support the Football Association of Wales and English Football League's partnership to deliver the FIT FANS initiative, which aims to support sustained weight loss and increased physical activity through six football clubs in Wales, including Cardiff City and Wrexham. The cohorts target both men and women, but a majority of the users are men. I had the privilege to visit the Cardiff City programme in the summer and talk to some of the participants and I was incredibly struck by the warm and positive way the men I spoke to described the programme, telling me it felt like a really supportive environment to improve their health in an environment where they felt comfortable and not stigmatised. I have no doubt that it was the feeling of belonging to the football club that created that environment. As James Evans highlighted, that sense of belonging is so important for all our mental health; it's protective. And the opposite is true—loneliness and isolation are bad for our mental health. I'm really keen that we explore all opportunities to find new ways of reaching out to men and boys.
To conclude, Llywydd, whilst our ambition is to promote and support the mental and physical well-being of everyone in Wales, we recognise that certain groups have particular needs, including men. As the proud mother of two boys, I can tell you that I constantly talk to my boys about their feelings and I will continue to do so. We must all ensure that we support our brothers, fathers, sons and friends to speak up about their mental and physical health and to seek help when they are concerned. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Laura Anne Jones now to reply to the debate.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd.I'd like to start by thanking, of course, my party for tabling this important debate today, and, of course, everyone that has taken the time to contribute to today's debate, and, of course, the Minister's positive comments that followed. Today we discussed and celebrated the approaching International Men's Day, which celebrates, worldwide, the positive value men bring to the world, their families and their communities. The day highlights positive role models and raises awareness of men's well-being, with this year's theme, as has been highlighted by many Members today, being zero male suicide by 2030—something I'm sure we'll all want to get behind. It has provided us today with a good chance to reflect on current Welsh policy and things that we can do, as individual Members and collectively, to up our game and ensure that men are supported across a breadth of issues.
Today's debate has been interesting, informative and concerning in equal measure. As my colleague the Member for Brecon and Radnorshireoutlined in his thoughtful contribution at the beginning, there are a myriad of issues that are affecting men that we need to talk about, and it's good that we have the chance to talk about them today. As many Members mentioned across the board today, we've got issues within health—heart and lung cancer is a particular problem; educational outcomes; family breakups, as Peter Fox highlighted; toxic masculinity, as Mabon ap Gwynfor outlined, and the Member for South Wales West gave examples of; and gambling, addiction and many more. As my colleague the Member for Monmouthhighlighted in his contribution, rural communities and farming communities face acute challenges in this regard in terms of suicide rates and mental health, with men, particularly over 65, in rural areas at particular risk of mental health challenges. And as James Evans said, 98 per cent of the under 40s, young farmers, are admitting to mental health issues of some description. And with 80 per cent of Wales being rural, this is of paramount importance for us and the Welsh Government to address. It is a rewarding career, to have a career in our rural areas, but it is a lonely one, as was quite rightly outlined, and I'm sure that it's something a lot of Members across this Chamber are concerned about. Last year the Samaritans highlighted that men in rural areas are less likely to seek mental health support, as we've outlined today, with their survey finding that only two in five of men in the countryside were willing to reach out for that support. It is a stressful industry, as Peter Fox said, and farmers are just not looking after themselves. That's why it's crucial that charities, brilliant charities such as the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution, the Farm Safety Foundation, Share the Load, FarmWell—. They are doing such important work, and it's really imperative that the Government do everything they can to work and support and promote the job that they are doing.
The Member for Brecon and Radnorshire also said that we all know someone that's been affected or has died as a result of suicide, and I think we all feel particularly for your father, Jack Sargeant, a much loved, beloved past Member that we thought an awful lot of, so our thoughts are with you on that one. But we all know someone that has died. In my own farming family in the Rhondda valley, an uncle wanted to take his life because of the pressures of the farming industry. It's especially concerning because farmers are surrounded by a farming world where a lot of it is macho and men have to be seen as macho. They're told to get on with it, as the Member for South Wales West said, and to man up. It's just such an awful attitude to take, but I do hope that with younger generations we will recognise that it is the wrong approach and can be wholly damaging. Like the Minister, it's certainly not how I approach parenting with my sons. I do ask them to let me know how they're feeling at regular intervals. So, I hope that, generationally, naturally things will start to change, although it is certainly an attitude that we've discussed just now that I'm hearing a lot about across Wales. With more education and talking about these issues within our schools, I hope these taboo subjects and talking about mental health, particularly for boys and men, might spur them into asking for more help going forward.
Another issue affecting Wales that deserves highlighting today—it's something I've brought up before—is the plight of white, working-class boys and men. A report was released in the House of Commons showing that white, working-class males are the least likely to attend university within the UK. The Welsh figures show that the Welsh gender divide in this regard, on average, is worse than both the UK and English averages. And within this divide, white students face the largest gender disparity in attending university, both in Wales and the whole of the UK. Wales gender disparity is 6 per cent wider than the national average. It's not just university, though. The number of learners starting at least one vocational qualification describing themselves as 'white male' has decreased. As Professor Matthew Goodwin said, there's not one single factor that can explain that problem. Evidence suggests it's a myriad of issues contributing to that: intergenerational disadvantage, geographic inequalities, family experience of education, whatever that might be. So, it's something we absolutely have to address, otherwise we're going to consign another generation of men and boys to the dustbin of history.
Domestic abuse was mentioned today—something that Jack Sargeant also brought up—that men need to make that change when it comes to domestic violence. But also it was highlighted, I think, by Mark Isherwood, that one in three of victims of domestic abuse every year are men, and that one in six men will be a victim of domestic abuse in their lifetime. Yet, less than 5 per cent of those victims of domestic abuse are being supported by local domestic services, which is a worrying statistic, as Gareth Davies also outlined.
Counselling costs a fortune, so how do they access it? The helpline that you outlined is a great way forward, but if you're accessing private healthcare, it's an extremely expensive route to go down, but some people want to be private about it, and so that's something that I think we should look at in terms of reaching out to men.
We mention prostate cancer, as Mabon ap Gwynfor outlined, with 26.5 per cent diagnosis of prostate cancer, which is a worrying statistic, isn't it? Men just aren't looking after themselves, checking, or coming forward for help. So, there's always an opportunity for us to look into that now.
And what about those dads and those partners that are by a lady's side when they're giving birth? Those experiences are often overlooked. The men are overlooked in those situations, and perhaps that's something, the post-traumatic stress post birth, that we need to look into as well. There are lots of places where men think they'll be fine, but actually we need to look after them in those unique situations.
Traditional methods are hard for men, so the groups that have been outlined in the Chamber today are fantastic. I know they play an important role in society, and we're lucky to have brave Members within this Senedd, Llywydd, that have come forward and admitted mental health problems, like my leader, Andrew R.T. Davies. A big, burly, confident farmer you'd never expect to have those mental health issues, but immediately after he admitted to that, it helped a lot of people come forward and admit that they have issues themselves, and get the help that they needed. We need to look at trade unions, as Jack Sargeant outlined, and other organisations that can step in and play a part in discussing mental health in the workplaces.
But as the Minister said in closing, there are a lot of good things that the Government are doing. The '111 press 2' hotline, which is available 24 hours a day, is a very important step forward, and I hope that it's really successful. So, we all need to do more to promote that. And the partnership, of course, with the FAW, WRU—all those sorts of things—is absolutely the way forward so that men feel comfortable, with a sense of belonging in a safe environment. So, I hope that on this International Men's Day, I hope that we will now all be redoubling our efforts to ensure that no man is left behind. This debate today is for your sons, fathers, uncles, grandfathers, friends, and I therefore urge all of you to support our motion today. Thank you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Voting Time

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the vote. The only vote this afternoon is on item 6, the motion to approve the Senedd Commission's budget for 2024-25, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Ken Skates. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 30, no abstentions, 12 against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 6. Motion to approve the Senedd Commission’s Budget for 2024-25: For: 30, Against: 12, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And that concludes voting for this afternoon, but we do have one item of business remaining—the short debate. This afternoon's short debate is to be presented by Delyth Jewell. I will ask her to begin, once she feels the Chamber is sufficiently silent for her to do so.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: If Members could leave quietly. If you feel you need to leave, please do so quietly, and then I'll ask Delyth Jewell to introduce her short debate.

10. Short Debate: Access to hospital care in the south-east

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I've agreed to give a minute of my time to my fellow Member, Peredur Owen Griffiths.
We all know that the national health service has a special place in our hearts, but perhaps that is even more true in south-east Wales, which is the birthplace of the national health service. Wales led the way with the health service that was based on health provision in Tredegar, which was a model for these isles.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'll be addressing my remarks today on how we can get to hospitals in the south-east and our ability to access care when we arrive. Now, I'll say, at the start, how much I value the dedication of hard-working front-line staff who make the NHS the jewel that it is, in spite of the challenges that they face. You are heroes in our midst.Now, those challenges do exist, of course.
Now, in this short debate, I'll give up most of my time to quoting direct words of others—patients and people working in the NHS. Now, firstly, I'd like to relay the experience earlier this year that one of my constituents, Huw Evans, had when he tried to access emergency care. Now, I'm quoting Dr Evans's words: 'I underwent a procedure at Llandough hospital. I was referred to them because of needing their expertise. It was a complex procedure. That all went well; I was home the same day. Everything was great until it wasn't. At about 9 o'clock, Sunday 5 March, I suffered a large and continuing haemorrhage with no warning signs. My wife called for an ambulance and was told the wait would be three hours, and as my wife pointed out to the operator, I would be dead by the time an ambulance arrived. We had no choice other than for my wife to get me from home to the Grange in her car, which she did rather well. Now, the hospital was great once stabilised, because I had been collapsing, loss of blood, in shock, but once stabilised, the bleeding stopped, vital signs improved, and it was then a matter of observing me until the risk of a further bleed rescinded.'
Now, my constituent goes on to make the following points: 'The ambulance service strategy relies upon their paramedics getting to people quickly to stabilise them, which they cannot do, it seems. The current situation places the emphasis on people getting themselves to A&E, with whatever condition they're suffering from, and assumes they're able to arrange and cope with it all. The ambulance service has lost control over managing its emergency response. So, the rationale of ambulances and quick-response paramedics getting to people quickly and maybe obviating the need for people to turn up to A&E has collapsed, with people racing around the area in their own cars, conveying patients who should be in a blue-light vehicle. I was lucky. People must be dying because they cannot access the appropriate emergency healthcare.'
Now, I wanted, Dirprwy Lywydd, to quote many of his words in full because of how powerful that testimony is. And I know, from talking to this constituent, this is a constituent who is a huge supporter of the NHS. He wants the NHS to succeed. I would ask the Minister, when the Minister is responding to the short debate, what assurances could be given to my constituent about the state of the health service in the south-east.
To move on to another area, my colleague Peredur and I, and other Members, have highlighted in the past the difficulty of getting to hospitals as well as to routine hospital appointments. And I'd ask again if the Minister could respond to what consideration could the Welsh Government give to ensuring maybe subsidised public transport to hospitals.
Now, I would quote directly a consultant from Merthyr, who is quoted in the BMA Cymru pressures portal, and I quote: 'The dangerously low staffing levels, poor working conditions, underpaid, overworked staff, lack of beds, lack of resources are all only but a few reasons why the patient's access to secondary healthcare is severely compromised. To further complicate matters, the centralisation of certain services has made access to certain specialties even worse and, as many would describe, as a matter of postcode lottery. Furthermore, the insistence of the leaders and employers that a hospital like Prince Charles—where there's a huge amount of renovation and modernisation work taking place, with contractors all over the place—remains a hot site. It is a disgrace, and I have to say that doctors do feel extremely frustrated all the time now because of the current situation they're finding themselves in.' They go on to say, 'I am extremely sorry if they feel that my feedback is negative, but I'm honestly trying to do all that I can to help alert those who can help fix the problem to do something about it before it is too late. I see doctors thinking about it or in the process of finding other places of work, which is quite often in other countries.'

Delyth Jewell AC: Now, I would pick up on the point about centralisation of services and the closure of many community hospitals and the effect that's had on a lack of step-down provision in too many of our communities. I'd highlight the example of the Rhymney Valley. Now, I was born in the Caerphilly miners hospital, and when Caerphilly miners was closed the community was assured that there would be a replacement general hospital. And then some years went by, and then without any real explanation—and, as far as I have been able to ascertain, there hasn't really been a public full explanation of this—that plan was downgraded, and Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr has become a minor injuries hospital.
Now, again, as I would say with Prince Charles, as I would say with the Grange, the staff who work in these hospitals are fantastic, they are so dedicated and the care that people receive is wonderful, but, in order to get to those appointments, in order to get to those hospitals, people have to travel across different Valleys. Last year, I had been contacted by one constituent who lived in Abergavenny who was having to go to—from memory, and they did give their permission for me to quote them but—I think from memory it was for a breast clinic appointment that was in Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr. I, at the same time, or around the same time, had been contacted by a constituent living in Caerphilly who had to go to Nevill Hall Hospital for something else, and so they would have been crossing one another on the different roads in the Valleys. Now, if people don't have access to car, which is more prevalent, of course, in communities like the Valleys, then it's even more difficult. And so, I really would welcome the Minister's comments on what could be done with public transport more, because that is an ongoing issue with access to the Grange.
But this situation locally to me has meant that, in the Rhymney Valley, there isn't an A&E. But, when people do get to an A&E, the situation is also far from being ideal. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine's analysis has found that Aneurin Bevan University Health Board is the worst performing for four-hour waits of any health board, with less than half of patients waiting less than four hours. I think it was 49.6 per cent in September, which is a significant decrease; pre pandemic, September 2019, the figure was 66 per cent. In September 2015, it was 85.8 per cent. I'm just quoting that 2015 to 2019 decrease to show that this isn't simply due to COVID, although I know that that is going to be part of the factor.
Now, the figure for bed occupancy for the whole of Wales is around 95 per cent. That is far from ideal, but, in Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, they were on average at 98 per cent occupancy for the first six months of this year. There is just so little space for anything to go wrong. Now, with a lack of acute beds and staff in hospitals, that leads to high hospital occupancy, excessively long waits for access to hospital care, and I'd ask what steps the Government would take or can take to address this issue, to tackle it and to improve patient flow through hospitals through this winter and beyond.
Last month, the Royal College of Nursing published 'Promoting efficiency and saving money in health and social care in Wales', and in that there were some interesting points raised on issues like prescribing, technology, but one thing they say is that
'workforce investment should be the Welsh Government’s first priority to address efficiency.'
So, in closing, I'd ask, when the Minister responds, if she could set out, please, what action the Welsh Government will take to address the chronic understaffing of hospitals and in the wider Welsh NHS, and what could be done to incentivise doctors, nurses, other staff to train and stay working within our NHS. Dirprwy Lywydd, we are so proud of our NHS in Wales. That remains particularly true in the Valleys, but too many patients feel worried that, when they are unwell, they may not be able to be assured that the ambulance will get to them in time, they may have to wait an excessive amount of time for treatment, and they may be expected to travel too far to get to that help. So, we all want our NHS to succeed, and I'd ask what actions can be taken, please, to change this situation. Diolch yn fawr.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you to Delyth for giving me an opportunity to contribute to this debate. I work very closely with her on these issues, and I'm aware of some of the situations that she has mentioned this afternoon.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Despite the introduction of some extra bus services when the Grange opened, it's still causing problems for many people from all over the region to get there using public transport. The issue was highlighted by Plaid Cymru councillorsCharlotte Bishop and Steve Skivens, when they attempted to get to the hospital from Abertridwr by public transport. It took them two hours, two buses and £9.10 each to get from Abertridwr to the Grange. This is one example. I have family members currently in hospital and they moved from the Grange to Ystrad Fawr. The care is excellent, but family are having to travel and are not being able to use public transport. Luckily, they’ve got cars to be able to go and visit. One member of the family is in there probably long term now, and it means that they’re travelling on a daily basis, but they luckily have a car to do that.
Another family member fairly recently wanted to use public transport to get to Griffithstown hospital from Caerphilly for an out-patient’s appointment; it was virtually impossible to get there by the time required. So, it’s these things that are real-life examples of issues of using public transport to get to our hospitals, and that link up between services. So, what I’d like to understand is what can the Welsh Government do to try and work through some of this. Is it helping to support volunteers and volunteering car share schemes—I know people who do volunteer their time to be able to do that—or is it getting better bus services, better train services, linking up some of this stuff?
But, yes, if you could comment on what could be done and what solutions we could come up with to support our communities, but also our staff in our hospitals, who, again, all have to possibly drive there because they can’t get to shifts on time on buses and trains. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the opportunity to talk about access to hospital care in south-east Wales. The Welsh Government remains committed to ensuring that patients are able to access safe and high-quality health and care services as close to home as possible. Health boards across Wales, not just in south-east Wales, are working extremely hard, as you have pointed out, in very challenging circumstances, in planning and delivering their services in line with the needs of the local population.
Now, you’ll be aware that the Aneurin Bevan University Local Health Board has implemented its clinical futures strategy, and work continues to deliver their ambitions for patients. The opening of the Grange University Hospital as a part of a new network of hospitals was a fundamental milestone in the delivery of that strategy, and that’s been essential as they look to achieve greater stability for their services and for their workforce. It's essential also to deliver improved services and an enhanced quality of care, the more effective use of its estate and wider systems opportunities.
Now, what you all know is that there has been a massive increase in demand—a massive increase in demand. The ageing population is putting pressure on the NHS like we’ve never seen before. We have a sicker population, so, despite the fact that we’ve got more doctors than ever, more nurses than ever, more allied healthcare professionals than ever, it’s not meeting the demand, and that is very difficult, particularly when you’ve got some of the kinds of financial challenges that we’re faced with today. So, I know you understand that, but I think there does need to be an understanding that it’s not through lack of effort here. We’re putting huge efforts in. There’s massive new investment in these services. There are significantly more beds per head of population in Wales than there are in England, for example.
You asked about workforce. Well, you know, we spend £0.25 billion a year investing in the future workforce. Volunteering—. I'll come on to transport in a bit, and I recognise that that is an issue for some people.
Now, as you'd expect, the health board continues, in Aneurin Bevan, to reflect on the impact of the changes that have been made with the opening of the Grange, and has already identified a number of benefits as a result of that. So, we've got a more resilient and flexible critical care service. I think that's important. We've got to understand that you do need to focus and concentrate specialists in one area, partly because there's a workforce challenge. We know that there's going to be a 10 million shortfall in terms of health workers across the world by 2030. This is not going away any time soon, and it’s not a Wales-only issue. This is an issue that lots and lots of countries are confronting. So, we do have to try and make the system that we have more resilient.
We've got more sustainable services for women and children, and more resilient specialist acute services. We've got additional emergency department and resus capacity. Now, it might not feel like that, but that’s because the demand has increased. But we have put in additional capacity. We've got increased diagnostic capacity. We have improved recruitment. I remember, when the Grange first opened, there were real issues around the workforce. Now, all of that has been sorted out. So, there are significant improvements that I think have happened.
Our ability, of course, at the same time as trying to deal with emergency care, to deal with planned care and effective elective care is also a challenge that we're trying to face. That’s very difficult. So, in lots of areas, you can separate that. In places like Aneurin Bevan, it’s a lot more difficult because of the way that the population is spread around.
So, I think that there have been huge efforts by Aneurin Bevan University Health Board and its staff. I recognise that further improvements are required to deliver the kinds of sustainable services that we want to see. I know that their performance against emergency measures is not where we nor the board want it to be. But we've got the six goals for urgent and emergency care to improve access for people, so they get the right care in the right place the first time. So, there’s a huge amount of investment that’s gone into that—£25 million per year; £6 million of that has gone directly into Aneurin Bevan. We've got the 111 service. We've got the '111 press 2' service. All of that is deflecting people away.
We also, of course, have the new urgent primary care centres: one's at the Royal Gwent, one's at Nevill Hall, one at Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr. So, 1,400 patients a month that would have gone to emergency care now don’t go there. So, these are additional things that we've put in place to deflect people away from those pressure points that we know exist.
We are exploring how we maximise the use of resources. Some of you will be aware that there's currently a public engagement exercise going on on the use of minor injuries units in that particular health board. Nevill Hall—the suggestion is that it reduces its hours from 24 hours a day to 18 hours a day. That’s because, actually, on average, there was only one patient there between 1 a.m. and 7 a.m. The community is very upset about it, but we've also got to think about efficiencies and how we get the maximum amount for the amount of money that we're investing. So, very, very difficult decisions that we're trying to make. And the same thing with the minor injuries unit at Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr. So, for similar reasons, the temporary arrangements they're suggesting should be made permanent.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: [Inaudible.]—you've quoted the Abergavenny hospital, at Nevill Hall, what were the figures around the overnight stays at Ystrad Fawr? Because you've often talked about the one person in the evening in Nevill Hall. What was the similar figure in Ystrad Fawr?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I'll have to get back to you on that, but, obviously, that has been reduced for a time. So, at the moment, obviously, there are no figures, but we can look back at what the figures were.FootnoteLink
The other thing that we've got to remember, of course, is that, very often, centralisation gives better clinical outcomes, and safety's got to be the No.1 priority for us. That has got to be the guiding principle for us. And, of course we all want, ideally, to have our services as close to home as possible, but actually, if there's a really good clinical case for people to travel and for us to gather that expertise in one place, I think we have got to pay attention to what the clinical evidence suggests is right for us.
What I recognise, then, is that a transport issue comes into the equation, which is why I'm glad to see that, as you recognise, there's a bit of improvement in terms of some of the transport links to the Grange. Obviously, I don't think it's ever going to be enough, but there are alternatives. The voluntary system for getting people to hospital is really effective. I mean, perhaps people don't know about it and that's something that we probably need to make people aware of. So, my 94-year-old aunty this week was taken from St David's to Swansea for an operation. She had no means of transport, she got on the voluntary transport system and it all worked perfectly well. So, it does exist, but perhaps people are not as aware of the facilities and the availability of those kinds of services.
We've also got the same-day emergency care service that has been opened in the Grange. We spent £3.5 million on that, and again, that's making a tangible difference, helping patients to bypass the emergency services.

Information further to Plenary

Eluned Morgan AC: Around 600 patients per month are treated in the SDEC service at the moment at the Grange. So, I think there's been a great deal of investment. The patient flow system is also in place. We have also allocated an additional £300,000 to provide the e-triage resource at the Grange hospital. There are a lot more resources that they've requested in order to make environmental improvements to the emergency department in the Grange, and £250,000 was provided last year. They are also asking—and we're waiting for a business case from them—to change the system in the Grange. So, things are improving, I think.
The problem is that demand is just increasing constantly, and the fact is that it is very difficult for us, particularly under the current circumstances, to find the money to respond to what is needed. Work has been done and I think things have improved, but I do think people have to recognise that there is a cap on how much we can spend in this area, and we all have to make decisions as to how we spend that money—you as a party have decided where you want to focus resources and we also make decisions. This is, of course, a priority for us and that's why you've seen recently that we have looked across Government to vire funds from other departments in order to help the NHS. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister and thank Delyth. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 17:33.

QNR

Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

Alun Davies: What assessment has the Counsel General made of the implications of the King's Speech for the devolution settlement?

Mick Antoniw: As signalled in my written statement, the Welsh Government is fully analysing the content of the UK Government’s legislative programme. I am cautiously encouraged by some improved engagement from the UK Government around the King’s Speech. I hope this translates into a more respectful approach to the Sewel convention, going forward.

Mabon ap Gwynfor: What assessment has the Counsel General made of the impact of the UK Government's Economic Activities of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill on devolved competencies in Wales?

Mick Antoniw: We laid a legislative consent memorandum before the Senedd on 8 September 2023 in relation to the Bill, recommending the Senedd withhold its consent. As will be noted from that LCM, the Welsh Government considers the Bill has regard to devolved matters such as procurement and economic development.

Questions to the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip

John Griffiths: What is the Welsh Government's current assessment of community cohesion in Wales?

Jane Hutt: The Welsh Government has confidence in the strength and resilience of our local communities. Through our community cohesion programme, we are continually assessing their needs and the impact of current events. This includes tension monitoring, grass-roots engagement and partnership working with relevant agencies, to promote and foster community cohesion.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's plans for the new child poverty strategy?

Jane Hutt: I intend to publish a refreshed child poverty strategy following our consultation earlier this year. The strategy will outline our long-term ambitions and visions for delivering for children living in poverty.

Jane Dodds: What assessment has the Minister made of the role of early years provision in tackling child poverty?

Jane Hutt: Evidence shows that access to high-quality early years provision supports child development and helps to ensure that every child has the best start in life. Early years provision is a key priority for the Welsh Government, reflected in our programme for government and our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru.

Heledd Fychan: How is the Welsh Government ensuring that deaf people who use British Sign Language to communicate are being supported when coming into contact with public services such as the health service and local authorities?

Jane Hutt: The Welsh Government is committed to ensuring deaf people who use British Sign Language can access the services, support, and advice they need to live independent and healthy lives. Services have a duty to provide appropriate support. We will ensure that the disability rights taskforce reinforces this as work progresses.